Well, time to take the engine out again!

[Mad Hatter]

That's street car thinking. If your racing from 4500 to 7500 rpm, its irrelevant how much torque you make a 3000 rpm. Phasers are for extending the rpm range. If the cam doesn't need springs and doesn't need to reduce phaser movement, its not a race cam and you are giving up high rpm power to keep unneeded low rpm power.

https://www.lmengines.com/l-m-intake-only-5-0l-coyote-camshaft-11-14.html
Drop in, no springs required, “intake only” camshaft set for 11-14 Ford 5.0L Coyote engines. Developed at the request and feedback of a top modular tuner, we have designed a camshaft profile that gains power across the entire RPM range without sacrificing low and mid-range power. Easy to tune, maintains drivability, and maintains full VCT movement and functionality.
With full TiVCT and NO limiters, full torque is obtained thru mid-range and low RPM



Yes its a dog ring style trans. Much faster upshifts and much easier to heel toe downshift. Plus this particular 5 speed is a close ratio box. You would never be caught between gears, ie wanting something like a 3.5 gear for a given corner.

Lastly, are you spending this kind of money because you want a fast street car? Or do you want to win races? If its the latter, stop thinking about the best available street car parts and start thinking about which race car parts you need.

Yes, I like to have my cake and eat it as well... But little buy little its getting faster and faster...

2012 Boss, MM c-plates, BMR camber bolts, Pagid RST1, L&M intake cams,Airaid CAI, Accufab 84.5mm TB, Ported Boss manifold, Kooks LTH, catless xpipe, AED race tune, Castrol SRF, FFRP ducts, Apex 18x11, Conti P2000 320/650-18 square,-3.2 camber,0.03 toe out, Dynatech 3.5" driveshaft, Cortex Koni SA extreme coilovers 600#/350# (track), Tranny cooling duct, BMR adjustable Panhard, spherical Relocation brackets, LCA, UCA, adjustable fsb, Ford rear 18mm bar, Ford spherical A arms, MGW race shifter, Spec2+ with aluminum flywheel, MM 6pt+2pt mod roll bar, Corbeau racing seat. Tranny oil cooler.

Not a practical street car (semi) but fun all the same....

 

[Mad Hatter]

But to be fair.... the car is really only on the road to and from the track......

 

[Grant 302]

Does that mean I am not as bad as I thought?? My readings are at 125 psi at 2900 feet...... But the wet test ran 10 psi higher and leak down at 15%

This chart through me off a bit....
View attachment 6311

That's a little worse than I was thinking. Heat is definitely a problem for the back of the banks and #8 in particular.

Everyone on the internet loves to talk about making more power. It's widely known that modular engines have enough issues handling heat in the back cylinders. The rear coolant bridge type mods help some, but everything should be done to ensure that the back cylinders don't get too hot. Individual cylinder tuning also helps some, but doesn't really help with the heat backing off timing can make the problem worse. They'll always be the first to fail in the back.

Anyway, I probably should ask what your oil cooling setup is first. IIRC, you're running the oil to water/coolant cooler? I don't recall you using and oil-air cooler...but if you are, something larger should be on the list too.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Thanks Grant.... yes, we will be removing the oem oil/water cooler and putting in a oil/air cooler, its been on hte list for a while and now we have the time to do it.. About the tune, when I talked to Shaun at AED he said he used the original parameters for the piston tuning.... So I hope Ford left number 8 a little softer. Thats at least what I understood....will check that email

I will post the pics as we tear down the engine and we find what state is in.

 

[Grant 302]

...Now here's where talking to me costs money...

I understand the points about removing the OEM cooler, but I think it's worth ~60,000 btu/hr of cooling. If you keep the OEM one, I'd keep a new spare one on hand. They're pretty cheap for the amount of cooling capacity, even if I'm off by a factor of 2x.

My suggestion would be to have two coolers going forward. Especially if you're going to do any more enduro races.

Even if both are oil-air I'd do two. For two oil-air primary would be downstream of the radiator secondary and larger one in front in the typical location. I know, crazy Grant talk...but that's what I'd do.

The problem with putting an oil cooler in front of the radiator is that you end up trying to cool your coolant with air that just passed over ~300ºF cooler core...

 

[Mad Hatter]

I have the M82 (T is left out on purpose) oil cooler up front already.... So it would be a decent idea to keep the OEM oil to water cooler and add a oil to air cooler on top of it all?? I would remove the A/C but n the longer races I keeps me from melting

 

[Grant 302]

Or more like these?

So it would be a decent idea to keep the OEM oil to water cooler and add a oil to air cooler on top of it all??

Depends where the trans cooler is and how big. If you use Mike's bracket (06mach1) for the oil cooler it goes under the hood latch area.

See the thread on deleting the OEM cooler:
Removing the Stock Oil Cooler, what is needed?

 

[Mad Hatter]

Oh!! Now I see what you mean about the the money.......... Dam things are expensive!

 

[Grant 302]

And not easy or cheaper to plumb two in.

What are the hottest temps you race in?

 

[BigTaco]

That's street car thinking. If you are racing from 4500 to 7500 rpm, its irrelevant how much torque you make a 3000 rpm. Phasers are for extending the rpm range. If the cam doesn't need springs and doesn't need to reduce phaser movement, its not a race cam and you are giving up high rpm power to keep unneeded low rpm power.

https://www.lmengines.com/l-m-intake-only-5-0l-coyote-camshaft-11-14.html
Drop in, no springs required, “intake only” camshaft set for 11-14 Ford 5.0L Coyote engines. Developed at the request and feedback of a top modular tuner, we have designed a camshaft profile that gains power across the entire RPM range without sacrificing low and mid-range power. Easy to tune, maintains drivability, and maintains full VCT movement and functionality.
With full TiVCT and NO limiters, full torque is obtained thru mid-range and low RPM



Yes its a dog ring style trans. Much faster upshifts and much easier to heel toe downshift. Plus this particular 5 speed is a close ratio box. You would never be caught between gears, ie wanting something like a 3.5 gear for a given corner.

Lastly, are you spending this kind of money because you want a fast street car? Or do you want to win races? If its the latter, stop thinking about the best available street car parts and start thinking about which race car parts you need.

Keep the cam phasers and use them to you advantage....just like Ford does. The main reason to lock them out is when you are not using an ECM that can control them.

 

[racer47]

You may not completely understand how and why phasers work. Read the link, I'm not up for debating this. Plus running factory a/c while racing? I'm talking race motors and race trans but this place is more hdpe than race so I should just be quiet.

 

[JAJ]

You may not completely understand how and why phasers work. Read the link, I'm not up for debating this. Plus running factory a/c while racing? I'm talking race motors and race trans but this place is more hdpe than race so I should just be quiet.

I don't think it's an issue of how phasers work - I believe your point is that if you can make more power over 4500 to 7500 by running cams that require locks, then you should install the locks and get on with it.

 

[BigTaco]

You may not completely understand how and why phasers work. Read the link, I'm not up for debating this. Plus running factory a/c while racing? I'm talking race motors and race trans but this place is more hdpe than race so I should just be quiet.

No, I do understand. An no worries, I’m not even thinking of this as heated debate. Please don’t take it that way. A/C on a race car?? Never! LOL

 

[racer47]

I don't think it's an issue of how phasers work - I believe your point is that if you can make more power over 4500 to 7500 by running cams that require locks, then you should install the locks and get on with it.

Exactly. Phasers do not increase high rpm hp. They actually limit high rpm hp due to the lower cam lift and duration requirements so that the valves don't hit the pistons because of the extreme cam timing changes relative to the crank.

From the livernois link above....

Custom camshafts are installed .....

In this application, the Variable Cam Timing is disabled. We’ve seen that in other engines in the past and were curious as to the motivation behind it in this case.....

The caveat to this design is that the VCT is impressive in situations where maximum torque is required, as in a street engine, .....

Since they run such a narrow powerband and the engine never sees engine speeds less than 5,500 rpm and runs up to 8,000-plus, we can get away with not having the functionality of the VCT and still make more power by using the larger camshaft profile in the narrow powerband where the engine operates.

 

[Coz]

Matt,

Are you never less than 4500rpm? Depending on the track and the associated timing of shifts, do you ever leave in 3rd and rely on the lower rpm torque?

 

[Grant 302]

Exactly. Phasers do not increase high rpm hp. They actually limit high rpm hp due to the lower cam lift and duration requirements so that the valves don't hit the pistons because of the extreme cam timing changes relative to the crank.

That's one way to look at it.

Phasers don't limit anything but cam choice. They don't let you choose going from non-interferecnce to interference fit. Choosing phaser locks or limiters is the same issue.

 

[racer47]

You guys just don't know much about real racing. I'm out.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Matt,

Are you never less than 4500rpm? Depending on the track and the associated timing of shifts, do you ever leave in 3rd and rely on the lower rpm torque?

Often take some medium curves in third a 4000 rpm...

 

[Mad Hatter]

You may not completely understand how and why phasers work. Read the link, I'm not up for debating this. Plus running factory a/c while racing? I'm talking race motors and race trans but this place is more hdpe than race so I should just be quiet.

To be honest, i don't think I would have made it throught the last endurance race with out A/C Is was about 30 deg C (86F). Dont have a cool suit... I used to race in the summer (Dec, Jan and Feb down here). then we would see temps up to 38C (100F).

Now that I am sticking more to one series, I have thought about taking out the A/C. I am sure the engine temps would drop with out the A/C...

 

[Mad Hatter]

And not easy or cheaper to plumb two in.

What are the hottest temps you race in?

As mentioned above... no hotter then 100F (too dam hot for me)