eFuel by Porsche

[Coz]

Porsche says synthetic fuel can be as clean as EVs - Autoblog

They can be used in internal-combustion engines with no modification.

www.autoblog.com

 

[Mad Hatter]

This has always had my attention, Seems like a logical way ahead once they can get the price down.

 

[PatientZero]

This seems much more feasible than electric to me.

 

[JAJ]

I've been tracking a company since 2015 that takes electricity, C02 from the air and water and turns them into diesel. From that, it can be processed into gasoline or other fuels. Basically, instead of storing electricity in batteries, they store it in hydrocarbons that can be distributed through well-established supply chains and burned in regular combustion engines. Zero carbon gasoline, or electricity in a drum if you prefer.

 

[Coz]

or electricity in a drum if you prefer.

Would I have to switch from Mobil 1 to Mobil 120?

 

[JAJ]

Would I have to switch from Mobil 1 to Mobil 120?

They'd probably call it Mobil 0.

 

[blacksheep-1]

I would tend to agree, Germany led the world in synthetics during WW2 because they had to import virtually everything but coal for fuel.
This whole electric vehicle deal really grates on me for several reasons, not the lest of which is that it is not driven by the market, in fact the market is being forcibly manipulated by government agencies, and while this magic "emissions free" claim is all over the news, we all know that nothing is "emissions free".
Another point is that are all the capitalistic countries seriously willing to turn their back on the oil and gas industry, and their millions of employees, including pipeline workers, truck drivers and technicians? EVs will also drive up the cost of virtually every product that travels over the road, as the price of fuel will go up, again, not by market influence, but because fuel stations will become fewer and farther between, and will require an entirely new fleet of trucks at some point.
Lastly, the higher polluting countries have no intention of wiping out their economy to do this, they will continue to use IC engines until they can no longer be maintained or fuel can no longer be provided.
Also, there's this..
World Lithium Supply (stanford.edu)
and while IMO it clearly has a "green" bend to it, he compares lithium use on a Nissan Leaf, and based on that extrapolates the amount needed overall.
Problem is, when oil and gas is deemed politically incorrect and is shut off, EVERYTHING will be using this stuff, and I'm not sure how much freight a Leaf can carry, but I'd bet it's much less, and for a shorter distance than say.. your standard over the road Kenworth. On top of that, don't forget that ships will also use this stuff for overseas shipping as well. Not to sure about airplanes but I don't see Kerry giving up his private jet soon.
Basically, when I see environmentalists taking it serious enough to living in caves, lighting their flatulence for heat, I'll admit we have a problem, but I don't see this happening any time soon.

 

[Sjohnson1800]

Being a pipeliner this whole obsession with electric cars and the attack on natural gas really freaks me out. I just hope that people open there minds and look for a better alternative than electric. As a lover of the internal combustion engine and wanting to keep pipelining for the next 30yrs I’m rooting for things like this from Porsche and even hydrogen which I think is the better option but that’s just me

 

[TorqueAholic]

I'm with @blacksheep-1 to a large degree. While it's cool and a good thing to look at future alternatives. Forcing the masses to subsidize technology for the sake of technology or further heads of state political careers is questionable.

Germans pay about 2X the price we pay for electricity for example. Why? Because their government went headlong into alternative sources and decades later they still can't figure out how to make it economically feasible. If you drive around Germany (Not quite as fast as you think they do) You'll see Wind turbines all over the place and you will notice that most of them are not spinning, even on windy days. Apparently, it's really hard to regulate the energy produced by the turbines and they end-up feathering them instead of trying to deal with the variances, a lot. Meanwhile they pay for both those white elephants + the conventional stuff needed to actually power the grid = 2X the price on electricity.

Likewise our good 'ol US ethanol fuel it takes more fuel to grow the corn than what is produced... I would not be surprised to see that the German synthetic fuel consumes more electricity to create than the equivalent KW produced by the engines it powers...

 

[TymeSlayer]

Give me a nuclear fusion car please and the down force I'm going to need to drive it

 

[TMSBOSS]

Here ya go.

 

[TymeSlayer]

Forget eFuel, everybody needs Mr. Fusion!

 

[blacksheep-1]

I'm with @blacksheep-1 to a large degree. While it's cool and a good thing to look at future alternatives. Forcing the masses to subsidize technology for the sake of technology or further heads of state political careers is questionable.

Germans pay about 2X the price we pay for electricity for example. Why? Because their government went headlong into alternative sources and decades later they still can't figure out how to make it economically feasible. If you drive around Germany (Not quite as fast as you think they do) You'll see Wind turbines all over the place and you will notice that most of them are not spinning, even on windy days. Apparently, it's really hard to regulate the energy produced by the turbines and they end-up feathering them instead of trying to deal with the variances, a lot. Meanwhile they pay for both those white elephants + the conventional stuff needed to actually power the grid = 2X the price on electricity.

Likewise our good 'ol US ethanol fuel it takes more fuel to grow the corn than what is produced... I would not be surprised to see that the German synthetic fuel consumes more electricity to create than the equivalent KW produced by the engines it powers...

Ethanol is/ was a joke, they do however have good lobbyists which is why they were successful into railroading that stuff in. Now don't get me wrong, ethanol/methanol is a good fuel for certain applications, but it is almost impossible to keep water out of it. From a firefighting standpoint, it is a nightmare, since it cannot be shipped by pipeline, (or if it is, requires a dedicated ethanol pipeline, so short distance only) like most oil/gasoline products. It has to go either by railcar or truck, and then is mixed into the fuel at the distribution point, this creates it's own set of issues since the truck/rail uses fuel to distribute it. This stuff, by itself, also does not go out very easily if it catches fire. Lastly the Indycar E98 has enough gasoline (2%) to ignite it, but then has all the attributes of an alcohol fire on steroids.
this is a pretty good article, and it quotes Williams Fire out of Texas, which is an industry leader in industrial firefighting such as oil well fires, etc, they are great to work with.
The only place I se for ethanol fuel is around farm country to power the local vehicles, or like Brazil, where their main export is sugar, and they have a large amount of material to create ethanol. So for large fuel markets, it's a no habla.

Ethanol fuels fire concerns (nbcnews.com)

 

[TymeSlayer]

Don't tell that to those corn growing farmers in Nebraska who have converted to growing it for ethanol use.

 

[JAJ]

Ethanol is/ was a joke, they do however have good lobbyists which is why they were successful into railroading that stuff in. Now don't get me wrong, ethanol/methanol is a good fuel for certain applications, but it is almost impossible to keep water out of it. From a firefighting standpoint, it is a nightmare, since it cannot be shipped by pipeline, (or if it is, requires a dedicated ethanol pipeline, so short distance only) like most oil/gasoline products. It has to go either by railcar or truck, and then is mixed into the fuel at the distribution point, this creates it's own set of issues since the truck/rail uses fuel to distribute it. This stuff, by itself, also does not go out very easily if it catches fire. Lastly the Indycar E98 has enough gasoline (2%) to ignite it, but then has all the attributes of an alcohol fire on steroids.
this is a pretty good article, and it quotes Williams Fire out of Texas, which is an industry leader in industrial firefighting such as oil well fires, etc, they are great to work with.
The only place I se for ethanol fuel is around farm country to power the local vehicles, or like Brazil, where their main export is sugar, and they have a large amount of material to create ethanol. So for large fuel markets, it's a no habla.

Ethanol fuels fire concerns (nbcnews.com)

I believe that ethanol was more about having the public subsidize farmers directly than it is about emissions. A powerful farm lobby got it done with the help of the environmentalists. So long as people are driving cars that burn gas, it's a guaranteed source of income for farmers. The money is effectively a tax on consumers, collected by oil companies and routed through them to farmers. Meanwhile, the government can stand back and claim that it's not a tax or a subsidy, it's just a regulation. Consumers pay more, farmers make more and government congratulates itself on a shell game well played.

 

[TMSBOSS]

https://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/basics/jtb_ethanol.pdf

Not so much a shell game. Renewable, less pollution and carbon Neutral. Runs cooler. Has run race cars since the 50’s.

 

[TorqueAholic]

@TMSBOSS "Less pollution and Carbon Neutral" You seem to miss the part where the farm equipment burns more Diesel growing the corn used to make it it than the fuel it produces. As far as burning E85 I don't have any issues with it. Livernois Motorsports has an E85 Flex tune where the stock Voodoo makes near 600 HP at the crank with no other mods. It's good stuff no doubt.

 

[JAJ]

https://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/basics/jtb_ethanol.pdf

Not so much a shell game. Renewable, less pollution and carbon Neutral. Runs cooler. Has run race cars since the 50’s.

The document actually makes my point, and very clearly: "Ethanol producers in the United States generate around 1.5 billion gallons of ethanol each year, most of which is derived from corn [...] and crops grown solely for energy purposes [...] Our agricultural community especially stands to benefit"

As to environmental benefits from ethanol in fuel, well they're pretty thin on the ground. It says ethanol "can reduce carbon monoxide emissions from older vehicles". Wahoo! If a car doesn't have functioning catalytic convertors, ethanol makes a difference. Otherwise, nada. Think about it - E0 is still for sale and cars burning E0 meet all the same tough environmental standards that cars running E10 or higher meet. And they get better fuel economy. From the standpoint of the public and public policy, ethanol solves a problem that's almost non-existent in the first place. Yes, it has specialty uses like sports car engines, but that's not a public policy issue, that's a specialty fuel for a specialty application issue.

So, if the only tangible benefit is to farmers, why is ethanol in fuel? Here's the "shell game" quote: "Adopting flexible-fuel vehicles helps fleet owners comply with the Energy Policy Act of 1992".

 

[xr7]

I'll toss in my .02. My understanding was that part of the reason for developing E85 was to have a fuel option that would work if oil shortages or embargo's continued. I always looked kind of cross=eyed at the emissions claims. I burn more fuel with either E10 or E85, how can I not be polluting more? This is certainly interesting times.
On the electrical front there is some potential good things about it but some downsides if it isn't done right. Imagine the early adopter in Texas with the elec vehicle. It would be a real mess if there were wide spread use of elec vehicles and the grid goes south for awhile. Generator running on propane and maybe a 500 gallon tank in your backyard.

 

[TMSBOSS]

Do you ever drink pure alcohol and pure water mixed together?? Most of us have. Now try that with most petroleum products. Any more questions on which is cleaner? Which pollutes more? Which produces CO2 while naturally forming again and again? I have work in corn production as well as alcohol production. And no, I do not care for the government meddling in either.
A few points from Argonne National,Labs.

Five Ethanol Myths, Busted

The United States consumes nearly one-quarter of the world’s petroleum production, yet contains a small fraction of its reserves. As other countries’ economies grow, the appetite for this finite energy source increases, placing greater pressure on the resource itself and the environment at...

www.wired.com