Camber plates AND adjustment bolts together?

[MachUno]

Hi everyone. The previous owner of my '15 GT PP installed Eibach lowing springs & camber adjustment bolts. Does anyone know if its ok to install adjustable plates and keep the bolts or should I go back to stock bolts?

 

[JDee]

Hi everyone. The previous owner of my '15 GT PP installed Eibach lowing springs & camber adjustment bolts. Does anyone know if its ok to install adjustable plates and keep the bolts or should I go back to stock bolts?

The camber bolts I've seen were not as beefy as the OEM strut bolts so I would revert to OEM if it was my car. Though TBH I've seen people using camber bolts with strut plates to get more camber. Some plates will only give you -2 or so and that's not enough. If you're going to buy plates buy good ones such as the ones Vorshlag makes. I made that mistake with MM plates which were problematic and company support was not good.

 

[MachUno]

Ok. Thanks for the advice. I always appreciate getting the skinny from people who’ve been there. Not just Hype from the mfg.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

I have Vorshlag plates on my Boss S , as they do give the most adjustment, but I ran M&M on my two previous cars and I found I got enough adjustment with them ,though I was only at around 2.5 degrees up front. Considering those with S197s it seems this is often enough for decent wear and solid steering control, but for those with S550/Shelbys when you can adjust the rear camber since it is an IRS, I think the ability to get around 3 degrees up front is more important. Good luck and you will note Vorshlag is a site sponsor.

 

[DaveW]

I use both on my S197, even Vorshlag plates only stopped just short of 3 degrees. I replace the bolts annually.

DaveW

 

[Norm Peterson]

Hi everyone. The previous owner of my '15 GT PP installed Eibach lowing springs & camber adjustment bolts. Does anyone know if its ok to install adjustable plates and keep the bolts or should I go back to stock bolts?

At least you're working with a later-year S197.

I can't find it right away now, but I seem to recall the steering knuckle pads that the strut grabs onto were thickened slightly as part of the running production change that brought on the fine-thread 166 ft*lb fasteners. Something like 0.020", so that fastener clamp load wouldn't be compromised by a loose fit between the strut tabs and the knuckle. On an early S197 with original knuckles, I'd slot the holes and use Ford's camber bolts (or possibly the 166 ft*lb upgrades).


Norm

 

[Stangra]

At least you're working with a later-year S197.

Surely just an oversight, but to be clear for everyone, '15 is an S550 not S197

 

[Scootsmcgreggor]

If your camber plate maxes out and you need more, slotting the upper hole on the knuckle mount is the strongest safest option. That way you retain the stock bolt size and strength. It only takes 2mm to gain an extra ~1.2* camber.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Surely just an oversight, but to be clear for everyone, '15 is an S550 not S197

My bad, sorry. I may have been thinking this was an S197Forum post.

Though I would certainly hope that Ford's suspension team filed that early-S197 matter under "lessons learned" for the S550.


Norm

 

[302BOB]

'15 is an S550 not S197

Why don't everybody just tell everybody what they got...I got a '12 Boss...what's so hard with that!!!!!!!!!!...instead of all that S baloney....The Old Man coming out of the cave..............watch out ......................

 

[Stangra]

Why don't everybody just tell everybody what they got...I got a '12 Boss...what's so hard with that!!!!!!!!!!...instead of all that S baloney....The Old Man coming out of the cave..............watch out ......................

Well sure, agreed... and the OP did.
Later it got confused, so just trying to keep it clear for all

 

[navseng]

I have been running with camber bolts and MM camber plates for a while... No issues

 

[302BOB]

Running with your ride with no issues is a blessing we ALL want..forever!!!....but strange things do happen, sad to say..........adjust as we may and hope for many happy miles...I know I do..............keep that right foot going...............

 

[MachUno]

yes, the 2015 mustang was the first year for the (IRS) S550. But anyway, I really appreciate all of your inputs. I’ve been building mustangs for 30+ years and TMO is by far the best source for info available. Thanks again

 

[Fair]

As we all know these cars are pretty softly sprung, and this allows for a lot of body roll, brake dive, rear squat and cross heave. The car above (base 2018 GT) is clearly into positive camber on both loaded tires, even at parking lot speeds. This will shred the outer tread blocks and result in premature wear.



As we add wider & stickier compound tires this only gets worse - and to keep the outside loaded tires from going into positive camber, we need to add more and more static negative camber to compensate (and spring rate - to reduce the suspension flop, and better damping, to deal with the spring rate.)



As many have noted, there are several ways to add camber to the front of an S550 - at the top mount (camber plate), with crash bolts at the spindle-to-strut-location, and even with adjustable length lower arms like the SPL Parts bits, above.



ALL THREE modes of camber adjustment introduce changes and compromises, and the goal is to minimize those CONS and maximize the PROS for your application:

1. Camber plates (normally) replace a fist sized piece of rubber with a metal spherical bearing.
+ This change A) reduces camber loss from a large rubber bushing, B) allows for camber and caster adjustment, and and C) speeds up the reactions of the dampers to suspension movement (PROS).
- The replacement of rubber with metal bushings adds some NVH, or Noise Vibration Harshness (CON).

2. Crash bolts replace the full sized bolts at the spindle-to-strut interface with smaller and/or cam0shaped bolts at one or both locations.
+ This allows for more camber adjustment cheaply (PRO)
- These can also A) slip due to the smaller diameter or cam shape, B) they are very tricky to "dial in" the camber you want, and C) they always remove inboard wheel room (CONS)

3. Adjustable length lower arms on the S550 ...
+ Allow for camber (lateral arm) or caster (thrust arm) adjustment (PROS)
- These also replace rubber with metal, A) adding NVH / wear item (they are closer to the ground so road grit + rain affect them much more often than a top mount), B) can let your alignment shop get way out of bounds on adjustments (it happens), C) they are trickier/slower to adjust - (CONS)



We have used all 3 modes to adjust camber on these and other cars, but the best way to quickly and consistently add camber without the downsides (slow to adjust, slipping, more noises) is the top mount. I cannot emphasize enough how much inboard wheel room you WILL lose with crash bolts... as the strut is moving relative to the spindle, and adding camber with crash bolts gobbles up the room we want to stuff 11" wide wheels under the stock fenders.



If you are going to coilovers (and lower ride height) you might be better off getting just camber plates - we ran these AST/Whiteline coilovers with 19x11" wheels and 305 RE-71Rs with "uncut" towers and our plates at the -3.4° camber setting shown above.



Most struts that don't have an inverted body have a strut stem that can protrude past the top of the strut tower, and THAT can limit travel on almost anyone's camber/caster plates. We build in a lot more travel than this limitation allows - because it is easy to open up the tower with a tower cutting tool like we sell. This is how you get towards -4 deg camber with a lower ride height or even -3 deg with stock struts/springs/ride heights. We have sold the cutting kits and/or have done this to 100s of cars without issue.



Remember these camber tips:
1. The faster you are driving, the more camber you will likely need to combat tire wear. Slower folks get great wear at lower camber settings!
2. The lower the ride height = the more camber you will get at the same top mount alignment setting
3. Adding camber helps fit wider wheels and tires under stock fenders
4. Adding positive caster will limit inboard camber travel until you cut the strut tower opening. Getting camber is more important - these cars come with a lot of caster.

Cheers,

 

[bob]

Terry,

Crashbolt also increases scrub radius a CON.

Can you comment on the need or lack of need to reset the front roll center on lowered S550's? Rollcenter correction arms also steal required negative camber.

 

[MachUno]

This is absolutely AWSOME Info. Thank you Mr. Fair.

 

[MachUno]

Sorry guys, I need more help. I’m still on the PP staggered wheel set up w/Pilot 4S but since an 18x11 square set up is in the near future and I know I will have to have them anyway, I installed Vorshlag Motorsports Camber Plates. Super easy and they look AWSOME. I kept the Koni adjustable for now but put factory strut bolts back in.
The Problem Is…I live out in BFE and none of the shops will align the car because it’s lowered/modified. The nearest shop that will do it is almost 40 miles away.
And since this will be strictly a track car, I figured I better learn how to do it myself anyway. So I picked up an SPC Fastrax caster/camber gauge. And an SPC magnetic camber gauge to tackle it myself. everything I read says adjustments will change with different tracks. My track days are at NCM, BARBER & AMP.
Should I be looking for -2 and .010 toe out.
what is the best way to do toe with a staggered set up?
Thanks

 

[Norm Peterson]

Toe plates would probably be the easiest. Though I'd personally like that method better if they registered off the wheel flanges rather than the tire sidewalls. Assuming undamaged wheels, anyway.

You can still use parallel strings stretched over jackstands. Setup is a bit fussier and wheel damage is still a consideration. There is, or at least was, a product called 'Smart Strings' that greatly simplified the setup process that you could use (or at least borrow the basic idea from).


Norm

 

[MachUno]

Toe plates would probably be the easiest. Though I'd personally like that method better if they registered off the wheel flanges rather than the tire sidewalls. Assuming undamaged wheels, anyway.

You can still use parallel strings stretched over jackstands. Setup is a bit fussier and wheel damage is still a consideration. There is, or at least was, a product called 'Smart Strings' that greatly simplified the setup process that you could use (or at least borrow the basic idea from).


Norm

Thanks Norm. I recently did the string method on my '71 Mach 1 and got it pretty close, but I didn't know if that would work with the staggered set up I've got right now.