I've now lost 2 of my 4 motors to issues related or possibly related to oiling issues, so I want to lock down oiling for the 5th and final motor.

Opinions have been mixed on using an accusump to provide a "safeguard" against oil pressure drop or loss. Who has used one with success? Who's had issues? I was looking at a 3QT kit with their Epro electric valve so that it would be mostly automatic, just use it for priming via a bypass switch and otherwise let it do its thing.

My telemetry data suggests that while out on the course I've not had any issues with oil pickup on a moroso road race oil pan, however I have had issues with pumps, bearing clearances and the forces of high rpm use. Anything that might save a motor without adding too much risk of its own is high on my list. The downsides is obviously a large container of oil somewhere on the front of the car (Its sure as hell not coming in the passenger compartment), and the valve being a potential point of failure and more hoses/fittings (not that I've personally ever had an issue, but simple=best IMO).

Thoughts?

I don't think a single engine comes out of Phoenix w/o an Accusump.
True story...
Back a few years when we were running IMSA Preston ran over some debris on the track, prior to entering the bus stop at Daytona, it cut through the oil lines to the cooler on the bottom of the car (may have got the cooler as well, I forget) being kind of busy, he didn't notice until all the warning lights came on and he immediately brought it around the rest of the track into the pits. (think of where the pits are, prior to the entry on the bus stop)
The engine never lost adequate oil pressure.
So, yes , it's worth it all day long.

Please take this with a grain of salt.
This comes from decades of racing experience and watching a lot of teams struggle. (myself included)
I would think that whatever is causing your engine failures is likely to continue until the source is found and addressed; regardless of whatever gadgets are added to the mix. Now I'm not super familiar with your engine builds, but it sounds like something basic is undone, over done, needs to be redone or re thought. The devil is in the details as they say, and I suspect he'll stay there until you find him. Good pump, good pan, tight motor that's clean inside and assembled correctly should run hard for a long time. I suspect there is something simple being overlooked, and when you find it, it will be a WTF was I thinking moment.
You've done a beautiful job building the car and I know everybody here is pulling for you.
I know I am.

Th

Fabman said:

Please take this with a grain of salt.
This comes from decades of racing experience and watching a lot of teams struggle. (myself included)
I would think that whatever is causing your engine failures is likely to continue until the source is found and addressed; regardless of whatever gadgets are added to the mix. Now I'm not super familiar with your engine builds, but it sounds like something basic is undone, over done, needs to be redone or re thought. The devil is in the details as they say, and I suspect he'll stay there until you find him. Good pump, good pan, tight motor that's clean inside and assembled correctly should run hard for a long time. I suspect there is something simple being overlooked, and when you find it, it will be a WTF was I thinking moment.
You've done a beautiful job building the car and I know everybody here is pulling for you.
I know I am.

Click to expand...

That's easy, this time I bought a Ford Performance motor.

I still have the old oil pan, so some more checking will be done there to ensure accuracy of the pump pickup depth, but otherwise the setup is all new and completely different than what came before.

I'm not worried about this motor oiling as much as wanting an opportunity to salvage the motor should the unthinkable happen and it loses oil pressure. If I lose one more motor to oiling I'm done with racing.

captdistraction said:

Th
That's easy, this time I bought a Ford Performance motor.

I still have the old oil pan, so some more checking will be done there to ensure accuracy of the pump pickup depth, but otherwise the setup is all new and completely different than what came before.

I'm not worried about this motor oiling as much as wanting an opportunity to salvage the motor should the unthinkable happen and it loses oil pressure. If I lose one more motor to oiling I'm done with racing.

Click to expand...

After decades of building my own motors, I too have gone to probuilt stuff. Sure is a lot easier, especially with how sophisticated things have gotten. Can't rebuild them with a rock and a screwdriver like we did in the old days.
With that being said, although I never ran an accusump lots of guys did and they can for sure be a lifesaver. As with any oiling system upgrade, just be sure that everything stays clean. I've seen more than one team struggle with oiling issues only to find out there was some trash hidden in a drysump tank or oilcooler that never got properly flushed after an engine failure. The more stuff you add, the more places there is for it to hide.

I think an accusump would not have prevented the previous failures. I don't see the risk/reward benefit here. And if anything, could be adding potential failure points from added hardware.

I already think you are making the right move using new parts for the this build. I can't say I recall everything from your previous builds, but I recall used parts that I would have ditched and swapped for new in a heartbeat.

I would spend more time and effort checking/polishing/chamfering oil bearing surfaces. And cleanliness throughout the build process can't be overlooked.

Best of luck on this build. I know we are *all* pulling for you on this one.

I don't think an accusump would prevent any of those failures, more about being a possible safeguard to allow the driver to shut it down before further damage occurs.

Though that has to be coupled with a good alert strategy. Since the accusump provides pressure, a switch on the pressure gauge to LED won't work since it will see that pressure for 30-60 seconds. What I think I need is two lights: Pressure beneath threshold, and accusump activation/action to be able to act within any window

that said, hindsight is 20/20, I missed an opprortunity to move to an aluminator last time and very much should have.

You are absolutely right that there's a risk/reward to the accusump as it is more oil system complication and an oil tank that could fail and cause issues. I'm 100% against installing it in the passenger compartment. If I decide to use one I'm going to see about placing it where the wiper cowl is (near where the cabin filter used to be and where I have ample fire suppression).

On the new build the shortblock is coming assembled, and everything else outside the outer covers is being replaced. I could in theory replace the covers too, but they're easy to inspect and clean. All the oiling system, lines, coolers etc are being replaced to ensure maximum cleanliness.

For the most part I have been staying out of the conversation and just listening and learning as there are people out there smarter than I am on the subject. In my travels I have learned a few things and found some things out as well. I'm sure some of this would be information that you already know though but I thought I might share some information that I have learned on this.

On the topic of the accusump I was talking with the reps at Moroso (they make the oil accumulators instead of the accusump, but same damn thing) during the American Muscle show and these are very simple devices and aren't really all that complex with one moving part really. A lot of rebuilds they get are for units that are a decade or two old and the ones that are newer than that, the seal on the piston is still in very good shape. I wouldn't worry about a parts failure in all honesty on this at all in terms of the canister. The hardest thing about them is just running the plumbing on them which I can understand the cause for concern with that being an added source of leaking, but I believe that was one of the items that you had on your pre or post race inspection list when I asked about the name of the marks everyone puts on the fittings to ensure they haven't moved. In all honesty I can't think of a good reason to not have one as it will just save your engine in the event that you lose oil pressure. Their electric valve kit would pretty much take all of the hassle out for you and was designed for road race applications where you could potentially be cycling through oil in a short amount of time and it would be one less thing for you to worry about. It really is a simple system which I am sure you have researched extensively. Terry "Beefcake" Reeves recently lost a motor in his car on launch due to improper oiling and an accusump would have saved his engine, but now he is down on an engine (possibly 20-30k engine IIRC from the facebook conversation). IMO it just doesn't make sense to me to put together a new engine and not have some sort of protection like this. Then again I am not a very big risk taker, literally the only old parts out my engine with a spun bearing was the timing cover, one coolant bypass pipe, the screws for both of those, the water pump, the pulley, the screws for that, the front cover & the pullies for that. I wasn't taking any chances at all because you never know what could be lurking somewhere in a crevasse, I even got new bolts for pretty much every part of the engine.

This is going to be me adding my own stupidity into the mix here, but I'm guessing that you have logged your oil pressure levels around the track in the past to make the determination that you aren't really running out of oil pressure through the turns. In doing so you know what the lowest your oil pressure has gotten around various tracks and with various tires. Why not set the accusump something minor like 3 or 5 psi below that mark that way you know you are still in a "safe" range and the accusump can kick in at that point. Continue with your light up gauge, but also add an audible alarm once it reaches say a lower point of pressure where now you know when you hear this you have to kill the motor. Now you aren't going to lose focus of a light up gauge that you may or may not notice while you are focusing on the track or traffic etc. Maybe talk to some shops and see if it would be possible to cut just the ignition this way you can still have power to the steering rack so if this happens mid turn you can somewhat safely make it through the turn and out of the way of traffic into some sort safe area to stop the car? As far as placement of the accusump believe that you have a gutted interior so why not add a firewall seperating the back of the car from the trunk compartment if you haven't already and place this in there like in the tire well and run the lines through that way, down the rail and into the engine this way the frame of the car is shielding the lines all the way up to the engine? I mean I understand that you are now running a great deal of hose and the possibility of something being kinked is greater, but now you have this in a more optimal position for weight and you aren't running the risk of having it in the passenger compartment.
On the aluminator, are you just getting the shortblock or the longblock? If you are just getting the shortblock you can order the cam drive kit from Ford Performance as well as and it would have all new chains, phasers, camshaft filters, bolts for all the timing components/ oil pump & a new crank gear this way there is no possibility of contamination from anything that the oil system has touched going into the new motor. I wouldn't even trust cleaning parts on this some biznitch haha. One thing that I know I don't get see mentioned very often are the oil pump bolts, which I believe I may have mentioned in the past, but I was told by a Senior Master Tech at Ford and the guys at Ford Performance that anything that you see that tells you to torque an additional XX degrees is a TTY bolt and should be replaced.

A thought just occurred to me about measuring your pickup tube clearance and the playdoh method. I did mine the same way that AJ did with using the straight edge to get the depth of the oil pan, measuring the height of the oil pan gasket as well as the height of the pickup tube and then figuring it out from there. With the Playdoh method, once you put the oil pan back on the engine, would that cause some slight deflection in the pick up tube which could skew your clearance numbers?

Not to derail the accusump bit too much, but I did a full fresh build:

The aluminator shortblock is getting dressed with all new parts. Only the front cover and top cam covers are being reused (after a thorough cleaning). All oil lines are to be discarded and replaced, new coolers, etc. Some fittings will be cleaned and reused in the oil lines, but only the ones I can guarantee are free of issue. I'm using the ford kits for timing, lifters, followers, head changing kit, new lower end gaskets, etc.

Back on topic, you are right, I do inspect the car end to end before track days and witness marking along with leak checks are big on that practice. This car is been surprisingly leak-free (minus a factory o-ring failure in a coolant housing) and much is owed to that inspection process to ensure that I don't have an issue before going out and beating the snot out of the car (or its engine, le sigh).

On the telemetry data yes, around our local bumpy/tight track WHPMP-West Track the lowest on-track value for the oil was 74 or so while running. I feel the pan/pickup was doing its job, so not as much concern there, but wouldn't be a bad idea to bolster it to help longevity by using an accumulator set to a few PSI less. I wish they had a mode switch - which would allow a priming mode or recognition of the engine off but key on, a low threshold mode for failed feed, and a higher threshold mode for when on course to cover high lateral load dips (not that I seem to have any but that's the point).

I'm working on the ignition interrupt ideas, if I could build something that recognized a key on but low pressure situation that would be ideal, especially if I can keep the rack powered even for a few moments. My biggest concern is if someone other than me was in the car, it shut off and puts them in a dangerous position once the steering became dead weight (you can indeed turn it, but between 305 slicks, a dead-epass rack and a reduced diameter wheel its a challenge). Also a concern of a false trigger condition since I have had that happen with another racecar we tried to build that logic into (that ultimately had to be towed in mid-race).

Outside an interrupt, the next thing is to improve the gauge warnings: The gauges do alert, but they're useless if you can't see them. I have a RaceCapture Pro with a tablet, but I like redundancy. The RCP system isn't perfect by any means so having a backup in analog gauges. I need to determine if I should sell these and get a model that allows trigger with LED's placed in line of sight or bright enough to be noticed. Additionally the RCP can be scripted to trigger outputs based on conditions (I trigger a 4-stage shift light via those outputs for example), so scripting a warning light is not an issue there, and while the tablet piece has some concerns, the RCP itself is running on track regardless and will provide those alerts even if I forget to stage it for recording.

Ultimately I think the accusump is going to be an alright idea, and the plumbing design allows me to bypass/delete it should it be an issue for me. I'm working up measurements for where I can put the accumulator (and access it), but I'll keep all updated as I work on that piece. Its not critical to getting the car running (I'll update the build thread with links to these threads to help consolidate that discussion). To break in the new motor (as I have for every motor I've built/bought) I won't have any external oil cooling loops (outside the boss water/oil cooler) to ensure simplification of the oiling during the very important break-in stage. After first oil change I'll add those items back.

Try Jeff Fiet at Optimum Motorsports for all the star wars stuff.

Chris
Think interrupting fuel not the ignition circuit.
Steve

I believe that I don't need to go as far as a drysump system to build out a safety net and well working system. That said in the past I've done the following (2011 mustang/boss 302 setup):

Moroso Oil pan, boss oil/water cooler, sandwich plate, -10 AN lines (~7ft), Setrab 915 cooler.

That said, this time around I want to add an accusump (3qt, I believe EPC pro 35psi model). While this is being setup, should I consider other changes?

Go to -12 AN?

The fittings are M22 on the setrabs (which I may go larger than a 915, however the previous one kept the car well in check with all the custom aero and diverter panels I used), and -10AN outlets (tightly fit) on the plate. Knowing those restrictions, I might be able to adapt the plate to -12AN and replumb it if there's a viable benefit. Ford Performance is recommending -12 very clearly on their oil filter relocation adapters, but wasn't sure where we were at when discussing shorter runs. The accusump may be plumbed with -10 as it will be after the external cooler and I'm not too worried about a restriction there in terms of what it should do for the system.

The motor its feeding is a new Aluminator that would be wrung out to 7800 fairly often.

Before considering the 'upgrade' to -12 lines, I'd look at ditching the Boss oil cooler and going to a Fluidyne or C&R radiator + oil-water cooler, like is on the CVR school cars.

The oil orifice in the Boss cooler is pretty small IMO. And if I were looking at improving any flow restrictions, I'd start there. The Boss cooler already has a lot of documented failures on it's coolant side, and I've never really liked the plastic bypass fittings in the lower radiator hose. I'd definitely ditch it for both those reasons on a dedicated race car and running in AZ or CA desert heat.

So some feedback for those considering doing the same for their motors:

The EPC Pro kit works great! I'm able to prime the motor (and see pressure on the gauges after flipping it on, you can hear the canister release oil) before startup, and while on a fast road course, the oil pressure never dropped below 45 (which is mostly a benefit of the pan, but the sump helped)

I'm wiring up a LED light to the pump so I can see when its being activated by the threshold sensor (though the more I use this system, I think the simple electric valve with a switch on a ignition switched power would be fine). I'm able to fill/close the unit and verify its full of oil. No leaks so far, heat hasn't been an issue.

I probably don't need this kit, but happy to have it. Another downer is that my car needs about 15qts of oil to be full. That said, when changing the oil, I need to remember that when I discharge the accusump, that its fairly pressurized oil coming out (I opened it with the oil filter off and well...made a mess)