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Trying to Learn squat....

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Norm Peterson

Corner Barstool Sitter
939
712
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
a few miles east of Philly
It's really just a different way to approach the same or a similar problem, and it's easier for some to work along this line of thinking (generally those with some engineering knowledge and experience) than trying to relate what taking a round out of the RR might mean.


Norm
 

Norm Peterson

Corner Barstool Sitter
939
712
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
a few miles east of Philly
I'm just saying that they have a lot more experience and first hand knowledge of chassis set up than most guys that have only ever driven street cars with their very limited range of adjustments. All of Fabmans explanations have been spot on imho.
Agreed that circle track racers tend to not get the respect they deserve.

The problem seems to come in trying to translate back and forth between "practical hands-on circle track" and "engineering" so that everybody gets to be on the same page.


Norm
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
5,237
4,227
Santiago, Chile
I am open to try anything reasonable, that makes some sense. in the effort to go fast.... the Phoenix cars and other like them have long impressed me with the spectacular results they get, so I will give a go at trying out the recipe as best I can. Always good to have a heated debate over how to get to a goal. At the very least to make you go over the process again and again and see what can be improved upon.
 

Norm Peterson

Corner Barstool Sitter
939
712
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
a few miles east of Philly
COVERED THAT....
I was specifically responding to the picture, which wasn't showing any UCAs at all and does suggest that only the LCAs are responsible. People tend to have an easier time with pictures than text for things like this.

3346.jpg



I covered everything. Some may not like the way I say it, but it's accurate nonetheless.
Hence my later comment on the matter of translating between thinking based on practical experience and thinking from a solid understanding of the engineering principles involved. We don't all think the same way, and I've seen this all the way down to the autocross and performance-street levels. Even Ron Sutton, Bob Bolles, and Mark Ortiz don't see everything in exactly the same way.


Norm
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
5,237
4,227
Santiago, Chile
That diagram was unclear to me for a long time, I used it to set up my car and ended up with a instant center way back in the car. Which is my fault I know.... I ignored the UCA for a long time.
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
Call me stupid, but I can't tell you how many times I bought popsicle sticks and pins and cardboard, then made models of suspensions to try an figure them out. Unfortunately, being old school, I have to "see" what is going on.

Nothing wrong with that. A drawn model or a physical model. I use them both. Pencils, pens, boxes, paperclips...all help visualize and confirm what can be drawn on a diagram and vice-versa.

EDIT:
You and Phoenix have done a lot of testing and validation of your setup on track. That's good enough for me! Even if you can't share the details, you've certainly given us something interesting to discuss. :D
 
Last edited:

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
5,237
4,227
Santiago, Chile
On a separate note, on page 63, he also suggests that roll understeer is better than roll oversteer. Go figure.

I find it rather funny that what started this thread about squat and such, was Fabmans thread about limiting roll oversteer due to a abundance of HP a while back. I know I do not have all the answers and I have serious suspicions of anybody who professes too. Be they a NASA engineer, or the old carmugen in the machine shop. What I have learned, is that listening and thinking for ones self, sure as hell does not hurt.
 
There’s a lot of great information in this thread so I’m reopening it. I did delete several posts. Let’s be respectful of others points of view and remember there can be more than one solution to a problem.

How about a big group hug?

1DC28F0C-A572-42A1-BF65-227056941E5E.jpeg
 

Norm Peterson

Corner Barstool Sitter
939
712
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
a few miles east of Philly
On a separate note, on page 63, he also suggests that roll understeer is better than roll oversteer. Go figure.

I find it rather funny that what started this thread about squat and such, was Fabmans thread about limiting roll oversteer due to a abundance of HP a while back.
Thing is, when it comes to steering & suspension, everything affects everything else. Sometimes not by much at all, other times by a lot, but (theoretically at least) always by some amount.

Roll oversteer can be helpful at, say, autocross. You might think otherwise on a road course, particularly when the apex is at or near the crest of a hill, speeds are somewhat higher, and the axle steer goes still further oversteerish as the road drops out from under it. See your UCA and LCA angles thread for a little more on this.

My own opinion is that a small amount of roll understeer makes for a more relaxed/less tense drive at least as far up as HPDE. Something in the 2% - 3% range, if you like numbers.


Thanks, Boss.


Norm
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
5,237
4,227
Santiago, Chile
I agree, noticed that would do better on the tighter tracks with more roll over steer as the tight corners were slower. On one larger track with a fast downward sloping corner, the high LCA angle was scary, on late baking the rear end would be very very loose.
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
5,237
4,227
Santiago, Chile
My own opinion is that a small amount of roll understeer makes for a more relaxed/less tense drive at least as far up as HPDE. Something in the 2% - 3% range, if you like numbers.

Over steer is way more fun!! but guess it might not be the fasted way around the track!!
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
Roll oversteer can be helpful at, say, autocross.

That's a good point. I've been less certain about a tight road course like Streets:

SV_SOWS_CCW.jpg



I agree, noticed that would do better on the tighter tracks with more roll over steer as the tight corners were slower.
Are most of your events this year at Interlomas?
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
5,237
4,227
Santiago, Chile
That's a good point. I've been less certain about a tight road course like Streets:

SV_SOWS_CCW.jpg



Are most of your events this year at Interlomas?


I wish!! Interlomas is a by far the best track in Chile. Out of the wheel to wheel series it will be 8 races, two in Interlomas and 5 in Codegua which is duller and faster. The plan you have for Streets of Willow looks like a blast.
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
I wish!! Interlomas is a by far the best track in Chile. Out of the wheel to wheel series it will be 8 races, two in Interlomas and 5 in Codegua which is duller and faster. The plan you have for Streets of Willow looks like a blast.

It is, but it's also a lot of work!

Looks like Codegua runs in both directions? Seems like it should make good use of more squat and transfer regardless of direction.
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
5,237
4,227
Santiago, Chile
Yes, Codegua should be good for some squat! They only run it now in counterclockwise.

(Been out of action for a few days with a summer flue).
 

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