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Electric water pump

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Fabman

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I've been talking with Meziere about this pump:

https://www.meziere.com/Products/Co...te-Model-5-0-street-factory-style-pulley.aspx

It's claimed to provide an 8-10 HP gain and they tell me these results were on chassis dyno so it would take into account the added draw on the alternator. Pump draws around 10 Amps.

It's rated for 55GPM free flow, I asked about flow rate under load and they sent me this flow chart:

View attachment 9783
It's a constant flow pump and they told me it will flow the same as a stock pump when the stock pump is spinning around 2500rpm. Below that RPM the electric pump will flow more, above that the belt driven pump will flow more.
Here's something to think about, there is an optimum flow rate. Too fast and there isn't enough time for effective heat transfer to take place and too slow the water becomes over heated and doesn't flow fast enough to reject that heat via the radiator. 55 GMP is what Meziere has chosen as the optimum flow....so why vary that?
 

Fabman

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Additionally, I was at AED a few weeks ago and Shaun told me he personally did all the dyno testing for Mezier and the Coyote pump is worth 12 rwhp. I assume Meziere uses a conservative number for advertising. Even if it was only 8 or 10...I'll take every one of them.
 
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Additionally, I was at AED a few weeks ago and Shaun told me he personally did all the dyno testing for Mezier and the Coyote pump is worth 12 rwhp. I assume Meziere uses a conservative number for advertising. Even if it was only 8 or 10...I'll take every one of them.
Presumably that gain is at peak HP/high RPM, when cooling is most needed. My concern is that the Mezier might be picking up those 8 or 12 HP by only flowing coolant at a rate equal to what the engine driven pump delivers while cruising at 2500 RPM (their numbers)
 
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Fabman

Dances with Racecars
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Presumably that gain is at peak HP/high RPM, when cooling is most needed. My concern is that the Mezier might be picking up those 8 or 12 HP by only flowing coolant at a rate equal to what the engine driven pump delivers while cruising at 2500 RPM (their numbers)
Pump RPM is not necessarily engine RPM. There is almost always some difference in the pulley sizes. What matters is the GPM which is the actual movement of fluid.
Not too fast and not too slow.
I will be at AED in the morning, I'll see if I can get any more info on the pumps data from Shaun.
Regardless, I have had great success via on track experience so I will continue to use them until such time that some compelling evidence suggest otherwise.
 

Fabman

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My concern is that the Mezier might be picking up those 8 or 12 HP by only flowing coolant at a rate equal to what the engine driven pump delivers while cruising at 2500 RPM (their numbers)

Since the pump is electric, pump speed/volume (GPH) has no effect on engine load or RPM since its not connected to the engine mechanically. The GPH is optimized for best transfer of heat regardless of engine RPM.
 
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Since the pump is electric, pump speed/volume (GPH) has no effect on engine load or RPM since its not connected to the engine mechanically. The GPH is optimized for best transfer of heat regardless of engine RPM.
Yes the flow is constant regardless of eng speed, but the 55GPH rate is at free flow. The chart from Mezier shows that at operating pressure it will be lower, 2lbs. of back pressure cuts flow in half. Depending on how restrictive the cooling system is who knows how much flow a particular eng. is getting?
 
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Fabman

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Interesting read.
Here's what I do know, from experience.
When I was racing stock cars it was common practice to slow the pump speed via pulley sizes and introduce a restrictor in the water neck to both slow the water flow and add head pressure to prevent cavitation. If you didn't do these two things you overheated rather quickly. Now with the pump speed optimized for the RPM that we ran, cooling was greatly enhanced at racing speeds but when the rpm dropped for yellow flag laps or in the pits temp would rise rather quickly. So the work around was to hold the throttle open to about 2500-3000 rpm until the coolant was at an acceptable temp which happened fairly quickly once the optimum flow for heat rejection was reached. Is the Meziere pump that optimum speed? I couldn't say, the calcs are beyond this simple racer but what matters is I know how to get there. And so far my Meziere has worked flawlessly. When I find something better, I'll be all over that, too.
 
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...Is the Meziere pump that optimum speed? I couldn't say, the calcs are beyond this simple racer but what matters is I know how to get there. And so far my Meziere has worked flawlessly. When I find something better, I'll be all over that, too.
I certainly can't say either. Since you've had good results with it I agree, why change anything? I've been considering installing one too, still lookin' for answers and finding questions. I'm going to guess that it works best with the least restrictions throughout the rest of the system, and that the 'optimum' flow is all you can get while staying short of cavitation.
 
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Exp. Type
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25 min. to 1½ hrs. from Sonoma (ugh... traffic!)
Presumably that gain is at peak HP/high RPM, when cooling is most needed. My concern is that the Mezier might be picking up those 8 or 12 HP by only flowing coolant at a rate equal to what the engine driven pump delivers while cruising at 2500 RPM (their numbers)
This would be the same rate delivered all the time regardless of engine speed. At higher RPMs no increased demand on pump = no increased demand on alternator = no increased HP losses as with stock pump (net gain at the wheels)

Pump RPM is not necessarily engine RPM. There is almost always some difference in the pulley sizes.

You make a good point, I've asked Jerry at Mezier to clarify this.
The response from Mezire today:

"Pump RPM. You would need to measure your crank and water pump pulleys to know exactly what engine RPM. In most stock application the water pump spins just a little faster than the engine RPM. In most cases it's around 200-300 RPM faster."

If this 'most case' scenario applies to our cars that would mean the constant flow Mezier will always flow equal to the stock pump at 2200-2300 RPM
 
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Fabman

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This would be the same rate delivered all the time regardless of engine speed. At higher RPMs no increased demand on pump = no increased demand on alternator = no increased HP losses as with stock pump (net gain at the wheels)



The response from Mezire today:

"Pump RPM. You would need to measure your crank and water pump pulleys to know exactly what engine RPM. In most stock application the water pump spins just a little faster than the engine RPM. In most cases it's around 200-300 RPM faster."

If this 'most case' scenario applies to our cars that would mean the constant flow Mezier will always flow equal to the stock pump at 2200-2300 RPM
This is why we slowed the pump down in racing applications.
At high rpm the pump was spinning too fast to remove heat efficiently.
Every pump has a range of rpm where it pumps most efficently and a flow rate where heat transfer is optimum, so it's designed to bridge those two. Again, you'll have to ask one of the engineers here to crunch the numbers but I'd bet Mezsiere has already done that to determine their pump speed and flow rates. So, I'm not really sure what we are debating....if you believe it's a bad product, don't buy it.
 
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This is why we slowed the pump down in racing applications.
At high rpm the pump was spinning too fast to remove heat efficiently.
Every pump has a range of rpm where it pumps most efficently and a flow rate where heat transfer is optimum, so it's designed to bridge those two. Again, you'll have to ask one of the engineers here to crunch the numbers but I'd bet Mezsiere has already done that to determine their pump speed and flow rates. So, I'm not really sure what we are debating....if you believe it's a bad product, don't buy it.
I never meant to suggest the pump is a bad product, in fact I believe it's a great product. I also believe it's not a one-size-fits-all upgrade. I know a lot of folks have used it with great success and there's no denying the HP gains. I don't know what application Meziere was designing for, drag racing? road racing? street? or some compromise? Perhaps we disagree on the effect of 'too much' flow on heat transfer, though surely we agree that cavitating the pump is bad. Perhaps there are other variables in play such as coolant turbulence, back pressure/restriction, the mix of coolant, or ???. I do know my application involves spending a lot of time operating at over twice the engine RPM than the Meziere replicates. I don't doubt successful cooling systems using this pump exist that will operate in the normal temp range under all conditions, but in a different installation with a different radiator, hoses, engine coolant flow improvements, air flow, etc. will that still hold true? In other words, when using this pump as we would, is the pump adding more to cooling than a belt driven one would, or is it working well enough with other robust components to do the job? Either way... take the 12 HP, right? What if it's installed in a system with other less optimal characteristics, or limitations, say an air conditioning condenser? Will it be the 'best' pump for a streetable track car at 7000 RPM? Just askin' questions.
 
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Fabman

Dances with Racecars
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I never meant to suggest the pump is a bad product, in fact I believe it's a great product. I also believe it's not a one-size-fits-all upgrade. I know a lot of folks have used it with great success and there's no denying the HP gains. I don't know what application Meziere was designing for, drag racing? road racing? street? or some compromise? Perhaps we disagree on the effect of 'too much' flow on heat transfer, though surely we agree that cavitating the pump is bad. Perhaps there are other variables in play such as coolant turbulence, back pressure/restriction, the mix of coolant, or ???. I do know my application involves spending a lot of time operating at over twice the engine RPM than the Meziere replicates. I don't doubt successful cooling systems using this pump exist that will operate in the normal temp range under all conditions, but in a different installation with a different radiator, hoses, engine coolant flow improvements, air flow, etc. will that still hold true? In other words, when using this pump as we would, is the pump adding more to cooling than a belt driven one would, or is it working well enough with other robust components to do the job? Either way... take the 12 HP, right? What if it's installed in a system with other less optimal characteristics, or limitations, say an air conditioning condenser? Will it be the 'best' pump for a streetable track car at 7000 RPM? Just askin' questions.
If we "assume" that Meziere has sized this pump for maximum heat transfer (and I have no reason to suspect otherwise) then engine RPM would be irrelevant. It would be the mechanical pump that would be suspect of not being in the right RPM range because that is the one that varies.....a pump that flows at the optimum speed for maximum heat transfer would always be better than one that doesn't. Its the job of the thermostat to control how much of that water goes to the radiator and how much is re circulated to the engine block. So again, if indeed the pump is optimized for maximum heat transfer...why would you want to vary that?
 
303
251
Exp. Type
HPDE
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3-5 Years
25 min. to 1½ hrs. from Sonoma (ugh... traffic!)
If we "assume" that Meziere has sized this pump for maximum heat transfer (and I have no reason to suspect otherwise) then engine RPM would be irrelevant. It would be the mechanical pump that would be suspect of not being in the right RPM range because that is the one that varies.....a pump that flows at the optimum speed for maximum heat transfer would always be better than one that doesn't. Its the job of the thermostat to control how much of that water goes to the radiator and how much is re circulated to the engine block. So again, if indeed the pump is optimized for maximum heat transfer...why would you want to vary that?
I like this point!
... However, was it their goal to achieve optimum heat transfer? Or do enough to get the job done while gaining HP
 

Fabman

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I like this point!
... However, was it their goal to achieve optimum heat transfer? Or do enough to get the job done while gaining HP
HP gain is a given as soon as you take the belt off of it.
So using a less than optimum pump speed would accomplish....what?
 
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HP gain is a given as soon as you take the belt off of it.
So using a less than optimum pump speed would accomplish....what?
Less load on the alternator which is now powering the pump.

If the electric pump is to do all the work that the belt driven pump did, would it be as efficient to convert mechanical energy into electrical energy and back to mechanical energy to then drive the pump? It makes sense to me only if all the work isn't necessary to begin with. Then come my questions about optimal suitablility for different applications
 
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Fabman

Dances with Racecars
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Pleasanton: 1/2 way between Sonoma and Laguna Seca

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