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NASA tt guys, help me figure out these rules.

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Duane Black

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Looking for some help for a n00b classing a 2013 v6 muscrat. I'm looking at tt3, 4, or 5.

My TT check ride guy had a BMW and said the rules benefit Beamers more than Mustang . He might be right...

Do caster camber plates fit this rule?

"Replace, modify, or remove control arms, camber arms/links, toe arms/links -0.5 "

It has the automatic with buttons, so got that -.3

It has a Fays2 Watts Link, which has the spherical adjusting arms, so do I check both of these boxes?

"Add, replace, or modify a Watts link, Panhard Rod, or Torque Arm -0.5 "

"Non-OEM metallic and/or spherical design replacement suspension bushing modifications on control/camber/toe arms/links, panhard rods, watts links, and torque arms (includes replaced, modified, adjustable, or altered control arm ball joints) -0.2 "

The adjustable sway bars and Torsen T2R should be fine, no rules in tt4 or tt5 address this, correct?

Fir TT4, there is a tire section width rule of 282mm, which is basically 11 inches it seems. On 10 inch wheels, what reasonably fits that when actually mounted/balanced and inflated? I'm running 285/35/18 Hankook R-S4 right now, based on tirerack that appears to out of the limits? I guess I need 9.5 or 9 inch wheels?

Does TT3 or TT5 have any such tire rules?

Cooling modifications appear to be basically unlimited?



Btw, for those doing TT, which tires, wheels basically fit this 282mm template?
 

ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
Moderator
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Arizona, USA
Do caster camber plates fit this rule?

"Replace, modify, or remove control arms, camber arms/links, toe arms/links -0.5 "

It has the automatic with buttons, so got that -.3

It has a Fays2 Watts Link, which has the spherical adjusting arms, so do I check both of these boxes?

"Add, replace, or modify a Watts link, Panhard Rod, or Torque Arm -0.5 "

"Non-OEM metallic and/or spherical design replacement suspension bushing modifications on control/camber/toe arms/links, panhard rods, watts links, and torque arms (includes replaced, modified, adjustable, or altered control arm ball joints) -0.2 "

The adjustable sway bars and Torsen T2R should be fine, no rules in tt4 or tt5 address this, correct?

Fir TT4, there is a tire section width rule of 282mm, which is basically 11 inches it seems. On 10 inch wheels, what reasonably fits that when actually mounted/balanced and inflated? I'm running 285/35/18 Hankook R-S4 right now, based on tirerack that appears to out of the limits? I guess I need 9.5 or 9 inch wheels?

Does TT3 or TT5 have any such tire rules?

Cooling modifications appear to be basically unlimited?

Btw, for those doing TT, which tires, wheels basically fit this 282mm template?

OK here is a quick summary based on the ST rules (same as TT) for classing:

Caster/Camber plates incur no penalty. They are talking about replacing entire suspension arms/linkages.

TT3 basically anything goes for you, with the exception of Aero. I don't think that will be a good space for you, however. You can run any tire size you want, although you can get P:W credits for running higher than certain treadwear or smaller than certain sizes.

282mm tire you will need to get a template to measure for certain or inquire on the NASA forums--there has been a lot of discussion on this. Basically this was to put in-check the "hoosier 255" which actually measured out to 275 equivalent (or more, depending on rim width). https://community.drivenasa.com/forum/2-time-trial/?ct=1573616731

Cooling modifications unlimited with the exception of the "hood vent height rule" where aftermarket hood louvers can't protrude more than 3/8" above the hood line (don't ask me why).

You do not need to take the additional -0.2 modifier for the sphericals in the watts--the -.02 is again referring specifically to the suspension arms (same as the camber plate question).

Sway bars and diff incur no modification penalties.

I am the ST Series Leader in Arizona so just let me know if you have other specific questions.

You will want to start off by getting your car scaled (with driver and anticipated post-session fuel load) to determine the ballpark for your minimum competition weight. Similarly you will also want to hit the dyno and get your average HP reading. You might be OK in TT4 but that is also the domain of the S2000 and some well-set-up and detuned E46s. TT5 might make more sense if you can fit.
 

Duane Black

Curbs go brrrppp
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Durham, NC
Thanks so much! I thought TT5 was the place but I have too much crank hp - apparently even though I can make power to weight, I'm still out....

I tho8ght all tt1-6 classes had a tire width rule?
 

ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
Moderator
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Arizona, USA
Thanks so much! I thought TT5 was the place but I have too much crank hp - apparently even though I can make power to weight, I'm still out....

I tho8ght all tt1-6 classes had a tire width rule?

All of the power is measured at the wheels--and it's then averaged (which is intended to neutralize the advantage of cars that make 600hp peak but are de-tuned to run 400hp from 2000 RPM to 7000 RPM). So your crank HP is irrelevant, in a certain sense.

Suggest reading the rules in detail as @The_Dead_Cow suggested. https://supertouring.nasaseries.com/forms-rules/
 

Duane Black

Curbs go brrrppp
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Durham, NC
To go to TT5 I'd have to run it on a tire fitting the 266mm template.

BTW, it isn't clear on the TT5 rules about how an engine is measure,d it just says any car with an engine rated from the factory under 267 hp. Factories generally rate by the crank - but does anyone know where a "chassis dyno" hp would be found for an "official" Ford rating - at 305 hp I think I'm roasted there.

Anywho, I printed a 282mm template and my 200 TW R-S4 fits so I'm good there, heck I might be able to squeeze some 295's in that template.
 
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Bill Pemberton

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Duane,

Go to the Nasaproracing.com website and then plug in the section under rules. Drop down to Super Touring ( racing ) and select the classification form. I was going through all kinds of confusion like you are and then AZ noted I was concerned about some things that did not actually concern my class. Keep in mind this works for Time Trial Classification also, and once you pull up the form you will note it states such. Heck , you could run super wide tires, forget the matrix, weigh in at 3400 lbs with 275 HP at the real wheels and you would still be in TT4. I would not worry about the competition , as there are always cars that the rules seem more beneficial too, but it varies around the Country what vehicles are active in the Regions? Play with the Classification chart as it will help you figure out quite a few things and you might be able to lighten your car and even give it a little boost in HP without any concerns. Hope this helps?
 

Duane Black

Curbs go brrrppp
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Durham, NC
I've been working on the forms and I think I have it figured out. There is a tire rule in TT4 where I'm trying to get to, I printed the template and I fit with my Hankooks on a 10 inch wheel (285 section width, several mm to spare actually too, mgiht even be able to go 295.... but if I mount up a proper R-comp, who knows...)

There's contingency money too, but it ain't happening for me I'm sure. You need like at least 5-7 starters in class, and that might happen at June in Road Atlanta, but it's overall not going to be a thing. The correct answer is just run the tires I can afford to run as often as possible... I did this just for cleaner track than DE4 is giving me right now as NASA - MA at VIR is just packing way too many people in DE4 and clean laps are impossible.

I got the dyno pull scheduled in January. Should be fun.

BTW, I weigh in closer to 3680 with me in the car.... :O
 

Bill Pemberton

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You need to go back and use the form as you are not constricted on tires ( note it says no restriction) -- this was the area that caused me confusion also, until AZ pointed this out to me. Figured you were heavy, so TT4 would be easy, but get rid of your rear seat and some other items and you can get some weight out. Nice that you could add a bit of HP without any consequence also. Note under tire size once you put in expected weight and HP it shows tire size is " Not Applicable!"
We have guys , due to the weight of a GT350R, sticking race slicks on their cars and still being eligible for TT2 with the small penalty the slicks apply ( and it is all done by the computer analyzing factoring in the penalty factor ).
 
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Bill Pemberton

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Subtle , subtle , but Boone I think you might want to invite Apex3V over too - could be a regular TMO party with all three of you checking who needed to go on a diet, ha?
 

Apex3V

Heel-n-Toe Enthusiast
Subtle , subtle , but Boone I think you might want to invite Apex3V over too - could be a regular TMO party with all three of you checking who needed to go on a diet, ha?
My diet is honestly done at this point, old girl needs to put on a decent amount of weight but should have some help with the addition of a bunch of steel tubes eventually.
 
Duane, just an observation, if you’re looking for more seat time have you thought about other hpde programs? NASA definitely caters to the racing crowd, which limits the hpde / crowds the track. CHIN is expensive but clubs like apex / svt club / crmc/ justtrackit / trackdaze tend to cost about the same as DE4 with NASA but provide longer / more frequent runs and from what I’ve seen, less crowded tracks!
 

Bill Pemberton

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I will comment on the Central Region, the Rocky Mountain Region, and the Great Lakes Region of NASA, because they all cater heavily to the HPDE driver and if folks are wanting to get acquainted with their car and get plenty of seat time , these are great places to start. I am just putting this out there as NASA Regions have different goals and I have no idea about the focus of North Carolina ( as you brought up) , but wanted folks in these areas to know they will be able to burn their tires off in HPDE competition with at least these 3 NASA groups. The Central Region is actually heavier with HPDEs than even Time Trials, let alone Racing.

Just an observation for other individuals and since Duane is in NC, I am sure he appreciates your comments a lot !
 

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