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10R80 Automatic Trans Cooling Questions

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TMSBOSS

Spending my pension on car parts and track fees.
7,529
5,245
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Illinois
You sound like a Blackhawk crewman. The army was so paranoid when this "Fly by Wire" aircraft cane into use that they over-maintained the bird. This caused it to be down more than needed. How did they fix the problem(s)? They re-wrote the books.
 
Second, less conventional solution: Talk to your tuner. Yes, tuner. Now I haven't been doing tuning for ages, and that was with the ancient 4R70W, but the same stuff applies. Look at the lock-up strategy/tables or however they're programmed now. Lock it up as soon or as much as possible. Heat mainly comes from the converter and the more you lock it, the more direct power you put down and the less you shear/work the fluid in the converter. Less of that equals less heat generated and energy wasted.

Who can do that? Is there a way to make it super aggressive and shift ONLY when you pull the paddles (nothing automatic).
 
1,289
1,113
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
Philly Metro Area
Who can do that? Is there a way to make it super aggressive and shift ONLY when you pull the paddles (nothing automatic).

A tuner can make it shift firmer. I'm not sure about the 10R80 but the SCT X4 tuner provides options for the 6R80 to let you adjust the shift pressure and mph.

As far as shifting only with the paddles, it does that when you put it into Sport mode and manually shift it yourself. Once you manually shift it, it should stay in manual mode until you put in back into Drive
 
View attachment 9045

So here’s what I have done up to this point and it seems to be working very well!

I used Derale 40 row stacked coolers. One for the trans and the other for the oil. I used a setrab oil filter sandwich plate with a 180* thermostat. I liked this plate as it would bleed a bit before the therm opened up to warm the oil in the cooler rather than cooler oil shocking the system. Both of these coolers hold a quart of fluid which to me is helpful. Any increase in capacity will help with temps. I used -10 AN fittings and lines on the oil side. Lots of people said I should have went -12 but the coolers and sandwich plates use -10’o ring ports so that seemed to be the bottle neck in the system so I made the decision I did based off of that. On the trans side I used -8 as the hard line on the factory cooler is half inch. I spliced into the hardline with AN tube nuts and sleeves after flaring the hard line with a AN glaring tool. Then I used the -8 male/male unions which allowed me to hook in the AN lines and hose ends I put together.

I mounted the cooler setup to the crash bar much like an intercooler would.

I knew I would need more air flow to the coolers so I chose a cervinis c series grill delete setup. This opens up the lower grill a lot and I feel it helps. I am worried about lift and an looking into hood vents but the jury is out this far.

I wanted a slick brake cooling setup but no one makes anything for the 18+ bumper as far as inlets go that I think looks good as no one makes a commercially available magnaride backing plate for these spindles so I decided to make something up. I had a buddy 3d print me an inlet. I originally wanted the entire area to be a scupper but I git only half the inlet. So them to block off the open area as to not get air into the fender well area. I used kydex to accomplish this task and get a plastic of similar color and texture as the factory plastics.

The entire set up is working very well. Last weekend at the Mustang Club of America event at Heartland Motorsports Park in Topeka Kansas we had ambient air temps between 97-101 degrees. The trans temps during 20 minute sessions would hold steady at 210-215! To me this is great. Before in the middle of a session it would creep up to 240 and at 230 it starts delaying shifts etc. I don’t have to have a mandatory cool down lap or two in the middle of sessions any more.

I don’t have an oil temp gauge so I can’t say much about that but my coolant temps run straight up so I think not having the factory tranny cooler wedged between the condenser and radiator helps not heat soak the upper radiator and not running coolant through the oil filter housing has to release some taxing heat soak on the coolant side as well.

This is my findings up to this point. Any critiques and criticisms are welcomed!

WOW!!! Thanks for this post!!!! Ordered the AN8 nuts and male male adapters. 37deg flare right?
 
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sfo
A10 cooling update: I went down the raod of giant coolers the LilZeus way posted earlier. It is still not enough for me clubracing in SCCA T2. Flyhalf is TimeTrialing and still after more cooling and working on finding a way to lock the OE bypass open for more cooling. I decided to not try his method because I'm thinking even with bypass open it is still a bottleneck and there is no way to know at this time if locking the bypass open can open the bypass more than it would open under normal operation. However, the bypass locking open method does start cooling earlier before the trans can get as hot. That might make the difference. We will have to hear back from Flyhalf. In the meantime I have gone a different direction. I hope this post helps someone else out.

I added a secondary cooler and pump to completely bypass the Ford cooler system. If I was doing this again I would try using the big cooler in front of radiator plumbed to the PPE pan and then keep the OEM trans cooler in place. I suspect thsat will be the best solution in the future. For now we are all trying to figure things out.

I bought the PPE mustang A10 oil pan so that I could weld or tap a bung to it pulling hot fluid with a tilton pump to a second front mount cooler with puller fan feed by a brake duct hole cut in the fascia. We have found that the PP1 undertray can direct cool air to brakes so brake ducts are not required. So brake duct holes just add more air to the brakes or can be used to cool the extra trans cooler.

dipstick hole thread is M20 x 1.5
all lines AN8
PPE pan comes 1/8NPT port I drilled with 1/2" drill and tapped for 14x1.5 to AN8 adapter.

20211128_165523.jpg

20211128_165511.jpg

20211128_154107.jpg

20211128_154032.jpg
 
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sfo
The hot ticket on mounting the pump is to take off the bracket and use a stout 3" exhaust clamp and weld a bolt to the clamp. There is a pre cut hole in the subframe to bolt the pump down.
 
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8,183
I'm going tto throw this out there, and I know it goes against what Grant has to say, but back in the GM 700R4 days, we found that ( in that particular application) locking the converter up actually created more heat, as the pressure ( I assume) dead headed and increased in pressure and heat. Like anything else, converter slip, or lack of it, can be too much of a good thing. Not sure if the design is completely different, but it possibly is. We used to get 6 speeds out of those 700R4s by locking up the converter in each gear.
 
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sfo
Along Rob's line of thinking...


From another site:
TC Lockup occurs in 2-6 in the 6R80, and 1-10 in the 10r80.

The TCC solenoid is modulated to ramp the TC lockup engagement, so lockup is not harsh.

The TC is unlocked for shifts, and (obviously) while stopped.

The TC is locked at all other times except: it will disengage to increase rpm's for more power. This mostly occurs at lower rpms where the engine has the least power available. Inside the powerband (ex 3000rpm+ for the ecos), the TC will largely remain locked when not enough throttle is being commanded to warrant a downshift.
 
The biggest issues and weak points for the 10r80 are TC and Cooling.
My 2 trannies failed because them.
Now,
Ford knew it.
Enfact
For the mach1 they have UPGRADED the TC and the cooling.
Biggest issue is that the lock up clutch is BUILT IN of the torque converter surface. Makimg difficult to upgrade.
To my knowledge there is only one TC THAT HAS it separated. It is the SUN COAST one. But is more than $4000.
Insane.
So I WOULD LOVE TO FIND OUT WHAT THE "UPGRADED TC for mach 1 is in reality
 
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FWIW the old Ford AOD and AOD/E also had a lockup clutch in the converter, but it was all hydraulically controlled (with a little electronic help, but not much)
 
323
316
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
So Cal
Is there a windage issue in the pan that might create excess heat? Would a screen or windage tray help? I've had situations where running too high of an oil level created heat problems (obviously, too little has its issues as well) and getting oil away from moving parts helped. I'm just wondering if this might contribute to the overall heat-rejection problem?
 
Is there a windage issue in the pan that might create excess heat? Would a screen or windage tray help? I've had situations where running too high of an oil level created heat problems (obviously, too little has its issues as well) and getting oil away from moving parts helped. I'm just wondering if this might contribute to the overall heat-rejection problem?
The overfilling is an issue for sure. There is a breather on top but that doesn't really fix it.
I have installed a catch can connected to the breather.
It does collect lots of fluid.
There is an aftermarket alluminium pan with fins vs the composite oem. That helps when cruising. Not really during session. (Although can help to cool down better between sessions)
Friday I'll go bedding the rotors with the new pads. So this could be a first test for the bypass i made. After that is dec12 buttonwillow.
 
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sfo
Is there a windage issue in the pan that might create excess heat? Would a screen or windage tray help? I've had situations where running too high of an oil level created heat problems (

The overfilling is an issue for sure. There is a breather on top but that doesn't really fix it.
I have installed a catch can connected to the breather.
It does collect lots of fluid.

There is no room to modify windage in the pan. In fact I had to be careful how I tapped the pan to add the AN8 bung. I considered just a weld-on bung but the 14x1.5 to AN8 adapter was perfect as you can see, without negatively effecting the AN8 flow size.

The A10 when hot does puke oil. I also added a catchcan but mine catches (vent to atmosphere) then drains back into the tranny. We will see if that works or if it is like blowing bubbles from a straw in your glass of milk.

When I have time I will graph temp vs. volume on the ULV. I could not find specs for the ULV. I would not expect a lot of temp related change but perhaps this is an issue when we get too hot. It is a real pain to check the fluid level on the A10 made worse by me using the dipstick hole to return cooled fluid.

The PPE pan is the same volume (I measured it) as the OEM plastic pan but is bigger heavier and has cooling fins.

20211127_142949.jpg
 
There is no room to modify windage in the pan. In fact I had to be careful how I tapped the pan to add the AN8 bung. I considered just a weld-on bung but the 14x1.5 to AN8 adapter was perfect as you can see, without negatively effecting the AN8 flow size.

The A10 when hot does puke oil. I also added a catchcan but mine catches (vent to atmosphere) then drains back into the tranny. We will see if that works or if it is like blowing bubbles from a straw in your glass of milk.

When I have time I will graph temp vs. volume on the ULV. I could not find specs for the ULV. I would not expect a lot of temp related change but perhaps this is an issue when we get too hot. It is a real pain to check the fluid level on the A10 made worse by me using the dipstick hole to return cooled fluid.

The PPE pan is the same volume (I measured it) as the OEM plastic pan but is bigger heavier and has cooling fins.

View attachment 70578
 

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