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S197 2011 Mustang 3.7 Performance Package, Shooting my shot at CAM-C Build Thread Profile - S197 Mustangs

How much clearance do you have between the inside of the tire/wheel and the strut? That will need to be minimized.

Also, is that as far as the GC plates slide in? To maximize camber, the strut rod/nut needs to almost be touching the inside of the hole.

DaveW
 
How much clearance do you have between the inside of the tire/wheel and the strut? That will need to be minimized.

Also, is that as far as the GC plates slide in? To maximize camber, the strut rod/nut needs to almost be touching the inside of the hole.

DaveW
I have a few mm of clearance between the strut, but its less than a finger tip. Debating stacking an additional 3-5mm with the Apex for more strut clearance, although this would be counter productive to the the fender clearance.

As for the camber plates, I cut the openings for more clearance but could not get any additional inward movement from the position shown in my last post. The alignment tech also loosen them and tried prying them inward to no avail. Maybe I missed something?

Thanks,
J
 
I run about 3mm clearance.

I have no experience with the GC plates, but it sounds/looks like they are designed to only allow about what you could get out of the stock hole. MM go in a little further, IIRC, but there is really only one FAIR solution to the issue. :) (Vorshlag plates)

DaveW
 
I run about 3mm clearance.

I have no experience with the GC plates, but it sounds/looks like they are designed to only allow about what you could get out of the stock hole. MM go in a little further, IIRC, but there is really only one FAIR solution to the issue. :) (Vorshlag plates)

DaveW
I had a feeling in the pit of my stomach that was going to be your suggestion... hahah


I've heard Vorshlag is the go to plate around these parts, but was assured by GC the street plates could get the -3 degrees I wanted to run while giving a more year-round streetable package with the urethane bushings. The joy of building an autocross car with compromises for the streets of NYC..


Before I throw any more money at the setup I'll reach out to GC to see if there is anything that I'm missing with the adjustment. I'll mock up the 18x11s again after the event on Sunday just to check the clearances after the alignment, but I am relieved to hear that 3mm should be enough to keep everything playing nicely. Maybe I'll jack up the control arm to cycle the suspension to see if it will contact the fender lip while I'm at it, unless there is a more legit way to cycle the suspension

Hey @DaveW any advice for a starting point with tire pressures on the 315 RT 660? They certainly like ALOT of PSI on the GS GTI (~42psi o_O)

-J
 
570
722
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
SoCal
I run about 3mm clearance.

I have no experience with the GC plates, but it sounds/looks like they are designed to only allow about what you could get out of the stock hole. MM go in a little further, IIRC, but there is really only one FAIR solution to the issue. :) (Vorshlag plates)

DaveW
Brand of strut makes a big difference as well. My KW V3’s with Vorshlag CC plates max out a -2.8 even though most S197s with that same plate can go well over -3.
 
I have been in the 34F, 30R ballpark on the Falkens, but I heard over this past weekend that higher pressure may help smooth breakaway and will probably try a higher pressure in the rear at my next event. My front (at the 34) has a nice crisp feel with predictable and smooth breakaway, but the rear can be a bit twitchy at the limit.

DaveW
 
First event in the Mustang came and went almost with out a hitch.. almost

On the bright side, the car felt much better with the new setup despite the same 265 tires stretch on the el cheapo 18x10 wheels. At the end of the day we were able to take 1st and 3rd in CAM-C at the local yokel event this past Sunday, which was a positive result from the first outing with the car this season.

Pros:
-The Ortiz Performance tune was FLAWLESS in disabling advancetrac and traction control
-The car was absolutely responsible and chuckable in the slalom, felt great
-Brembos were fade-free and gave us a lot of confidence
-We took 1st and 3rd in CAM-C

Cons:
-Super bumpy course exposed issues with front suspension setup
-Mid-Corner Understeer in sweepers (increasing rear Koni rebound helped greatly in Afternoon)
-6 inch 375 springs are probably too short
-Could use more front grip (camber)
- too much front spacer (25mm) with 18x10's caused inner fender contact on full compression

1st place CAM-C run
-Looking at the data I drove the hairpin and showcase sweeper poorly, the car had more in it but the driver was very slow to learn after spending the previous day behind the wheel of a MK7 GTI lol
Old Man's 3rd place run
-Dad was MUCH more comfortable in the car, and prior to this run laid down a raw time easily capable of taking 2nd in class (plus 3 cones)

As always would love to hear feedback on the drive/solostorm footage as we continue to develop the drivers/car

Ordered 400lb 7inch front springs and figured out the issue with the GC camber plates, so hopefully we will have the ride height raised and increase the negative camber to -3 in the upcoming weeks. Overall a solid day with the car, but definitely room for improvement. Very much excited to see how the 315s RT660 works out with the updated setup as well as the rebuilt trac-lok (in the near future)

-Til next time,
J

71CEBDCD-2F21-42BC-94EB-1FA639056305.jpeg

8368DE5B-CF65-44F4-B142-D6A87AF54349.jpeg
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
357
345
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
Nice job & congratulations to you both!

One thing I noticed in both runs, was that you were off of the first pointer after the start. If you were taking a wider line so you didn't pinch the next gate, okay. But realize that you can gain time by reducing distance as well as increasing speed. Sometimes you can take a shorter line that's a bit slower speed, and end up with a faster time. Just something to consider when you walk the course.
 
Got a second event under my belt in the mustang running with the local PCA at the "Barn" aka Nassau Coliseum and made a few minor setup changes to try to dial out mid corner understeer and front tire rub under full compression. Mainly I stiffened the rear Koni valving and swapped to a small front spacer, both of which worked as intended.

Was not a fan of the course as it did not flow very well nor effectively use a large portion of the lot, but I appreciated the seat time regardless. My driving was sloppy most of the day with ALOT of cone penalties, but finally put down a decent time on my 9th run. Classing for our local PCA is odd, but I was able to secure 4th in X3 class (unlimited mods/no tire restrictions, 3.3 liters or greater) and the 12th fastest raw time out of 68 cars. Not terrible for a slow pony on old/worn 265 re71r's

The old man wanted take his 94 Miata R E street car out so we had a bit of a gentleman's challenge, thankfully I drove well enough to beat him raw and pax😉

In the upcoming weeks I'll be working to dial the car in with the following before its NNJR premier on 7/25:

-modify some 993 brake deflectors to work on the car 993 air deflectors
- figure out the rattle from the front left (sounds like a bag of loose change, checked endlinks already but thinking its camber plate related)
-put in the 400lb springs
-raise the ride height in the front
-More camber
-any clearancing needed for the 315 Falkens

In the meantime heres some run footage from the PCA:
PCA RUN 9

Next event is a local NYR SCCA on 6/27, will have the car running the 265 RE71's again until they are corded

Til the next update:
-J
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
357
345
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
Run looked nice - you're doing a good job looking ahead, placing the car well, smooth inputs. :thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup:

I think the next thing to learn/practice is "shuffle steering." On both this run and the previous video, there are several places where your arms are fully crossed over on the wheel. You're making the corner okay, but it would be difficult to add any more steering if you needed. If you used shuffle steering, your hands would be in a better position to make corrections all the time, and possibly give you a better feel of the wheel in those tight corners. You did start to shuffle a bit at the start of this last video when you grabbed the top of the wheel for the first corner, so you're part way there.

It's something you can practice easily on the street so you can make it an unconcious habit on course. I probably overdo it, but I like to shuffle enough so that my left hand is no further clockwise than about 1 o'clock at the apex. That gives me another 30 degrees or so of input I can use for corrections without "binding up" my arms, and my hands have good contact with the wheel to feel any grip change. For slaloms I'll allow more arm crossover because the time at apex is so short before unwinding the arms.
 
Mostly what the other Dave_W said, also, to me the car looks tight/pushy everywhere. It is really hard to tell from video from a course I didn't run but even given the tight (and numerous) turns, it seems like the rear never rotates.

DaveW
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
357
345
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
Another thing I remembered about the lot. Not sure what part of the lot the course you ran was set up on, but back in the 90's when SCCA-NYR was running there, they always used the southwest corner. All the way to the corner of the lot near the street was a big pile of sand and it tended to get blown across the lot, so the grip was never great, especially for the first few runs until "the line" got cleaned off.
 
Mostly what the other Dave_W said, also, to me the car looks tight/pushy everywhere. It is really hard to tell from video from a course I didn't run but even given the tight (and numerous) turns, it seems like the rear never rotates.

DaveW
Car is definitely "tighter" than I care for, have to be very disciplined with corner setup/entry to avoid understeer. I'm used to very loose FWD setups, but I definitely think the mustang can use more rear stiffness to improve rotation. Maybe I'll experiment by swapping the 20mm rear sway bar for the 22mm for the next event

Appreciate the insight!
 
Another thing I remembered about the lot. Not sure what part of the lot the course you ran was set up on, but back in the 90's when SCCA-NYR was running there, they always used the southwest corner. All the way to the corner of the lot near the street was a big pile of sand and it tended to get blown across the lot, so the grip was never great, especially for the first few runs until "the line" got cleaned off.
I've been running at the Coliseum on and off for 12 years and we originally started off in the SW lot. Unfortunately we lost that years ago and were relegated to the northern central lot (narrow, small, and poor asphalt with ALOT of marbles) and I stopped running there unless we were driving the crx or miata

The club now runs in the Southern (central) lot, aka lot 6, and there are still a lot of marbles which required staying tight to the line. No surprise that most people ran their fastest times late in the PM after the course was "clean"

With the larger lot back in play, I hope there will be a resurgence of NYR SCCA and draw a higher level competition back to Long Island
 
Quick Early Summer Update on the "Slow Pony":

I've only had the car at 3 events so far this season (lame), but recently made some changes to continue the dial in for the CAM-C setup. The biggest change for the last event was swapping in 7inch 400lb front springs to try and raise the ride height/increase clearance for the 18x11 & 315 combo and installing/testing the Strano 1 inch rear sway bar on the softest setting (replaced a 20mm Ford RSB). Also threw in a Schroth Quick Fit Harness, which I cannot recommend enough even with stock seats

Had the car corner balanced/aligned at El Gato Engineering in Port Washington, and Steve did the best he could given the limited setup to create adequate clearance for the 315s. Some compromises were made to fit the 315s and we could only get -2 degrees out of the car with the super conservative ride height to avoid tire/fender interference. I want to lower the front another .5-.75 inches up front to see if I can get back to the -2.5 camber range to improve tire wear (afraid to go too low and get steering nibbles and/or fender contact)

The car has a total 4x4 stance, especially when rolling around on the 18x10s with 285 Falkens, but it works on bumpy local lots!
IMG_8196.jpeg
Car is currently 3452lbs with 1/3 a tank of gas and I think it will be easy to get the car down below 3400lbs with a rear seat delete, removing fogs/strut bar, and maybe adding a Steeda lightweight radiator support (class minimum of 3300 without driver). Weight distribution was 55F/45R and just about 50% cross weight with driver.

Ran a local PCA event last weekend and was able to take the 5th fastest raw time at the event (its hard to keep up with 911 Turbos and GT3's haha). Car was muchhhh looser at the PCA event last weekend with the rear swaybar change. We got 26 runs codriving to dial the car in for our first trial on the 285/30/18 Falken RT660s (picked up a used set of scrubs for local use). They definitely like more pressure than the RE71, but were very predictable in breakaway and did not fall off as much with heat. The shorter tire definitely made the car leave corners harder and required more discipline with throttle application, based on my calculations the effective final drive is 3.67 with a top speed of 63mph in 2nd gear. Still crossing my arms in really tight corners:rolleyes:

Dad's Fastest Run:

My Fastest Clean Run:

Fastest Dirty Run:

Would be interested in your thoughts about appropriate ride height for the front end (rear is not adjustable with the 185lb Boss 302 springs)

We've got back to back weekends in the slow pony, leaning towards continuing to learn the car on 285 Falkens instead of opening a new can of worms with the 315s

-J
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
357
345
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
Still crossing my arms in really tight corners
Randy Pobst had a good article in SportsCar (the SCCA magazine) recently on what he called the "pull down" method. I think the details in the article accidentally swap left-right in the middle of the explanation, so it's hard to follow until you realize the error.

The basics are that you want to be at the apex of the turn with whatever hand is on the outside of the turn (e.g., right hand in a left-hander) at the upper outside quadrant of the steering wheel (e.g., right hand between 12 and 3 for a left-hander). That gives you the best feel, control, and ability to correct; as well as smooth unwinding of the wheel as you accelerate out. Randy says to initiate the turn-in by pulling down with the "inside" hand. You then need to slide & regrip your hands in whatever way needed to acheive that apex hand position.

I intially practiced "shuffle steering" while watching TV. Imagine a LH turn, grab the imaginary wheel with your left hand, bring that hand down to 6 o'clock to meet your right hand, open your left hand and grip with your right, then push the wheel up with you right hand as you slide your open left hand around the wheel to meet your right hand at 12 o'clock. Then the right hand passes the wheel the the left hand, pull down with the left to 6 to meet the right hand and do the whole thing again. Keep doing that "turning" the wheel 5-6 full circles in one direction, then do it 5-6 circles in the other direction. Repeat 3-5 times. Keep practicing a few times a day until it becomes natural - it takes a while but you should get it eventually.
 
Randy Pobst had a good article in SportsCar (the SCCA magazine) recently on what he called the "pull down" method. I think the details in the article accidentally swap left-right in the middle of the explanation, so it's hard to follow until you realize the error.

The basics are that you want to be at the apex of the turn with whatever hand is on the outside of the turn (e.g., right hand in a left-hander) at the upper outside quadrant of the steering wheel (e.g., right hand between 12 and 3 for a left-hander). That gives you the best feel, control, and ability to correct; as well as smooth unwinding of the wheel as you accelerate out. Randy says to initiate the turn-in by pulling down with the "inside" hand. You then need to slide & regrip your hands in whatever way needed to acheive that apex hand position.

I intially practiced "shuffle steering" while watching TV. Imagine a LH turn, grab the imaginary wheel with your left hand, bring that hand down to 6 o'clock to meet your right hand, open your left hand and grip with your right, then push the wheel up with you right hand as you slide your open left hand around the wheel to meet your right hand at 12 o'clock. Then the right hand passes the wheel the the left hand, pull down with the left to 6 to meet the right hand and do the whole thing again. Keep doing that "turning" the wheel 5-6 full circles in one direction, then do it 5-6 circles in the other direction. Repeat 3-5 times. Keep practicing a few times a day until it becomes natural - it takes a while but you should get it eventually.
I will definitely have to dig up that issue of SportsCar and give the Pobst article a once over. As always I appreciate the insights and feedback as I work on the "driver mod" & learn to drive this car to its potential. I wonder if a set of driving gloves would make me more inclines to slide my hands on the wheel using the push/pull method?

Ran a really short/fast course this past weekend with the local club (NYR SCCA), someone decided to finally create a power course in the back lot and clean the marbles off the race line with a blower. Wish we were running the larger/bumpier lot up front, but I'll take any seat time I can get at this point.

Car felt great and easy to push through the slalom/sweeper, even Dad is getting comfortable behind the wheel of the slow pony. Ran higher pressures on the 285 Falkens after seeing shoulder wear at the last event (37F and 32R) in addition to softer rear Koni settings.IMG_8245.JPGIMG_8250.JPG

We took 1st-2nd in CAM, 3rd in PAX, and 6th fastest Raw. Nice confidence booster before we head back to NNJR next weekend to debut the car in their CAM class.

Fastest Run:

Going to play with mocking up my Porsche 993 brake cooling deflector setup this week and see if I can get them up and running on the car for the next event. Will try to post a few pics if they come out half decent
 
Finally got the matchup I've been waiting for with the NNJR SCCA!

This past weekend we had a fairly stacked CAM field at MetLife with 9 cars in class, but my sights have been focused on the dominant local CAM-C car for the past few years: a 2015 S550 on 305 Rivals, OS Giken Diff, Full CAM class aero, nice coilovers, etc. We also had former SCCA National Champ Ken Houseal's co-driver bring out his 6th get Camaro SS 1le shod with Apex wheels and 305 Supercar tires. Rounding out the class was a 3rd get CAM-T firebird on 315 Rivals, a C6 Z06 prepped for CAM-S, a well driven CAM-T foxbody, Whipple charged 2010 S197, and another 3rd gen Camaro.

Had a tough time putting down clean runs early in the day, but was able to clean it up late in the day by focusing on keeping up mid-corner speed. Was only able to secure 4th place in class this week which was disappointing as I know my driving could have been better in at least 2 sectors. On the bright side, I was only 4 tenths behind the winning S550 car which to me is an overall win. We showed up on well worn 285 Falkens with our low-buck approach to CAM and were within striking distance. I cannot wait to see how it stacks up with the 315s

NNJR Event 7 fastest Run with data overlay

Unfortunately due to low turn out and other outside factors, we ran a 2 heat format similar to last year, meaning my co-driver and I would be running 16 runs back to back in one heat. Based on the low numbers we knew there would be little time for driver changeover/brake cool down between runs, in the back of my head I recalled the brake issues we had last year with the same format. We made it 14 runs before we began to notice mushy brake pedal, not bad but there is room for improvement

Cue brake cooling DIY!

-After the event we re-bled the brakes with some fresh Motul 600 and decided to get the ball rolling on some brake cooling for the 4 pot brembos. Having seen the new Vorshlag cooling deflectors (and the price tag..), we decided we could make a DIY setup for a fraction of the price. After searching around, Porsche 993 deflectors were selected as a starting point as they seemed like a bargain for $60 shipped. With some trimming and Home Depot bracketing solutions, they fit pretty well for less than 1/3 the price. The definitely are not as big as the Vorshlag setup or other DIY setups I've seen on here, but for our autocross/future time trial aspirations I think they will work out well. Just need to run some hard ducting from the fog light openings to the fender wells and we should be in great shape

tempImageuvwmfb.png


We have a brief lull in our schedule, so in the upcoming weeks the car will be receiving a few more tweaks including: OP mustang titanium shims, centering the rear axle/trimming fender liners for 315 clearance, hard ductings from fog openings, and possibly some small weight reduction.

Not loving the brake pedal feel even after the brake bleed, there is some travel in the pedal before the brakes grab, but when they do engage they grab hard. I suspect it might be from the front pads wearing, but I will be checking the thickness/for glazing when I install the shims.

The car is a blast to drive and is finally starting to look fast even with the 4x4 stance lol
IMG_6777.JPG
 
Late August Update:

The slow pony now has 93k miles on the odometer and 100+ autocross runs on it since we moved up to CAM-C. With over 2 seasons of autocross on the stock rear end, we knew the death of the factory trac-lok was inevitable. Recently the car began spinning the inside rear tire around tight corners, especially in the wet. Out on course, I began to notice that on-throttle rotation on corner exit was unpredictable at best. Sometimes the car would push, other times it would kick the rear with some catchable oversteer.

When rotating the tires after our previous event, I noticed the car had some in-out play in the rear axle when rotating tires and began to worry the 8.8 rear was in need a of a full rebuild. After discussing with a former autocross buddy who runs a wildly modified 63 Falcon with a trac-lok out back, he suggested worn clutches could be allowing for the excessive play.

Keeping with the spirit of this build, aka how fast can we go in CAM-C for the least amount money in a daily drive V6 S197, there would be NO trick diffs going into the rear. Over the winter I scored a carbon trac-lok rebuild kit & GT500 finned diff cover from the Cortex garage sale, and learned from my buddy how to rebuild the 8.8 carrier.

Upon disassembly, everything looked great with no excessive wear or play on the axles/bearings/gears. So an in-car diff re-pack was executed in a few hours.

tempImageroxLW7.png


This week, its full steam ahead to get the car prepped for NNJR event #8.

On the to do list:

#1) Brakes
-New rotors/pads all around (PowerStop track day pads up front and trying a milder PowerStop rear pad)

#2) Swap over the Apex 18x11's with 315 RT660 and scrub them in

#3)Weight Reduction
-Install rear seat delete (secondhand off FB marketplace)
-Remove boss 302 front strut tower brace

Thinking we can pull 30-40lbs out of the car with these two pieces alone, which should put the overall weight close to 3400lbs. Still need some ideas to get another 100lbs out of the car for next season while retaining streetability

Hopefully we can put up a good fight in CAM on Sunday!
-J
 
It's been a slower then usual August/September for autocross in the Tri-State area, so this past weekend we took the trip out to Pocono raceway to run with NEPA SCCA. The goal for the day was to finish off the take-off 120+ run 285 Falken RT660's running the infield course at Pocono while getting our first seat time in almost a month. The course did not fail to meet expectations, and I was able to touch 75 mph in 3rd gear on the course with the lowly V6 pony.

Got smoked by a well prepped 5th gen Camaro z28, it was the first time the car felt down on power compared to the competition on such an open/fast course

Outcome of the day was pretty positive after a dirty set of morning runs:

- 2nd in CAM-C, 33rd in PAX out of 104
- Met a fellow TMO V6 mustang autocross @phaze1todd
-- Corded 3 Falkens

Dad's fastest run of the day:

My fastest run of the day:

Ordered some Vorshlag bump stop relocation mounts that will be installed prior to running the 18x11's at the NNJR season finale

-J
 

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