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106
166
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Michigan
As some of you know, I've had a very difficult time deciding between the roll bar and full roll cage in this car. The roll bar seemed like a good option but left me with a lot of work down the road when it came to the inevitable roll cage, and so I decided to just install the full cage now.

As I had the roll cage all fitted up and ready to weld, something made me take a minute and ask why I was taking this car off the road and making it 'track-only'. I couldn't really come up with a reason that made sense- I can't afford to build the car to be competitive and go racing right now, nor was I very excited about not being able to drive the car on the street regularly.

So, last week sometime, just before I settled in to weld up the front half of the roll cage, I pulled the plug. I cut the tacks on the front half, put the dash back in it and welded up the roll-bar instead. And I have to say I'm very happy with my decision as of now. I'll be installing most of the interior and making a rear seat delete. Looking to ride the line of compromise between street car/track car for a dual duty, reliable ride.

But anyway, here is one last photo of the top half of the cage before I took it apart._J2_0014.jpg

The fit was awesome. Hard to tell here because it's sitting down in position to weld the tops of the tubes. But, I can say that I successfully built a very nice, tight fitting roll cage. I labeled everything and set it aside in case I do one day decide to install it. But for now, we're going with the roll bar. It will provide adequate roll-over protection and enable me to use my 5 point harnesses and HANS device.

I cut 1/4" off the bottom of the main hoop legs and it tucks tight up agains the headliner, now. It was basically tight against the sheet metal before. I have the rear stays and diagonals welded to the main hoop at this point. I need to finish welding the plinth boxes into the car and weld the roll bar in place. I'm almost done with the seat mount bracket and then I can place the harness bars. Still a ton to do before leaving for GingerMan this Friday afternoon, but I"m going to make it. It's just gonna be a tough, busy week.

_J2_0033-2.jpg_J2_0037.jpgScreen Shot 2022-06-13 at 8.11.06 AM.jpg_J2_0006.jpg_J2_0007.jpg_J2_0025.jpgScreen Shot 2022-06-13 at 8.29.20 AM.jpg
 
106
166
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Michigan
Hey all. Been a little while. Only had a chance to drive the car a couple of times after I finished the roll bar and unfortunately she dropped a valve. Long story short- I pulled out of the gas station after work one day, ran it up to about 4,000, as I went to shift i heard a loud bang and lost power. I shut it down and coasted into a parking lot. I figured it had spit a follower out. Once i got it home, I pulled the valve covers and found the right bank timing gear had been twisted off the camshaft. One follower was broken in half, the other two on that cylinder were wedged between the camshaft and the cylinder head, which is what froze it in place and twisted the sprocket off. What I found later was that one of the valve guides had some very extreme wear and it eventually snapped the head off the valve.

_J2_0043.jpg_J2_0045.jpg

Since I revamped these heads myself, and I know the guides were sized right and concentric going in, I'm still scratching my head as to what happened. I didn't have a runout gauge at the time of doing the valve job, but did the ol' bounce test on the valves as I was cutting the seats. Also- a vacuum and liquid test without valve springs or seals and they seemed to be okay. Now, I've bought a runout gauge and the rest of the seats look great, within .002". So i'm not thinking that a bad valve job caused the valve guide wear.

Only other two things I can think are-
1.) the guide was not square to the cam shaft and so was being side loaded, or
2.) debris/lack of lubrication on the valve stem at some point and started the premature wear that escalated quickly with a lot of high RPM abuse.

After long consideration of perhaps just doing the coyote swap now, i decided to stick with the 3V for now. Gen 4's are right around the corner 😈.

I ordered a replacement Mahle piston, wrist pin and a set of rings, a new RH camshaft, and another used block that I need to have machined. I'm going to port another set of heads and get the engine rebuilt this winter. Everything in the engine looks great. Bearings looked awesome and no debris in the pan. The cylinder showed very minimal damage considering, and i was quite tempted to put the new piston in and run it. The gouge didn't seem sharp enough to break a ring. But since it'll be put away all winter anyway, i have decided on a rebuild with another block. Then I'll never have to wonder or have excessive blow-by on that cylinder.

Pics of the carnage-
I never found the valve seat...
_J2_0091.jpg
IMG_8330.JPG

More to come. Cheers!

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106
166
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Michigan
That sucks but at least it was at the end of the season rather than the beginning. Any upgrade plans with the new motor?
Yea, you're right there. Pretty much building the same motor over again. I actually don't plan to port the heads as much this time around, nor will I install oversized valves. I'm going to give it a good valve job,clean up the bowls by hand and just improve the transitions/short turn, etc. I'm betting it'll make the same power.
 
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IMO, the valve seat was the cause of the problem. Another thing that has cropped up over the years is if the heads are bead blasted, some of the blasting media can be left in the guide area if you're not careful and can sort of gall the valves, which lead to what you have there.
 
106
166
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Michigan
IMO, the valve seat was the cause of the problem. Another thing that has cropped up over the years is if the heads are bead blasted, some of the blasting media can be left in the guide area if you're not careful and can sort of gall the valves, which lead to what you have there.
In what way do you suppose the seat was the cause? The heads weren't blasted and I replaced the guides after I was done porting them (prior to valve job). I'll try to get a pic of the wear in the guide, it's pretty severe.
 
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I think the seat ( which is very brittle) dropped out, got eaten by the valve and went away. What's left of the seat looks the same as when I replace bearings/ seats/ bushings in aluminum after I heat them up and pop them out.
It may not be that, just an observation
 
106
166
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Michigan
I think the seat ( which is very brittle) dropped out, got eaten by the valve and went away. What's left of the seat looks the same as when I replace bearings/ seats/ bushings in aluminum after I heat them up and pop them out.
It may not be that, just an observation
You know, I'm glad you said that. I sort of wondered the same thing. By the time the throats are opened up in these ports the valve seat insert is really thin! I kept wondering while I was porting them if that would ever fall out of there. But, I have a damaged head from my friends 3V that he had ported by Livernois and we ended up with very similar throat diameters. Their's don't generally fall out so figured I was good to go. But still, doesn't seem like there'd be enough tension on the press fit to hold it in there at a certain point. Maybe that one went too far.
 
9
6
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
3-5 Years
Athens,AL
3V Whats your plan on the Roll cage. I did the same trilangulation on my main hoop in the floor board.
Nice work.
 
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That really is some nice work on the cage, I'm going to assume youre running subframe connectors already. When I caged and subframed both a foxbody that I owned and also several SN95 cars, they were literally transformed, no squeaks, rattles, and they (at least felt like) better handlers. In the NASA class I autocrossed in they wouldn't allow mustangs to have SFCs but I found supports out of a new edge converutble car that they le tme use since they had a Ford part number on them, they were pretty cheesy, but still better than nothing.
 
106
166
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Michigan
That really is some nice work on the cage, I'm going to assume youre running subframe connectors already. When I caged and subframed both a foxbody that I owned and also several SN95 cars, they were literally transformed, no squeaks, rattles, and they (at least felt like) better handlers. In the NASA class I autocrossed in they wouldn't allow mustangs to have SFCs but I found supports out of a new edge converutble car that they le tme use since they had a Ford part number on them, they were pretty cheesy, but still better than nothing.
Thanks, Rob. I didn't end up doing the full cage, just the roll bar. Since the car also got a torque arm and panhard bar rear suspension setup, through-floor sfc's, under car sfc's, front k- member and much improved front suspension geometry...oh, at ~150# off the nose and another 100+ hp all at the same time, it's hard to say exactly how much the roll bar contributes. But you're right, the car is a completely different animal. Handles very well and lots of grip.

3V Whats your plan on the Roll cage. I did the same trilangulation on my main hoop in the floor board.
Nice work.
Roll cage became just a roll bar. I believe you're referring to diagonals from the main hoop down to the subframe connectors, which I have not done yet, but do plan to. Good for fighting chassis twist and also peace of mind having the main hoop supported in two more spots in the event of a roll over.

I have the a-pillar bars, roof bars, and windshield bar/gusset bars all laid in the corner. If I ever decide to cage it, I could, but it would be a bit of a nightmare and require removing the roof skin, as the main hoop is super tight against the roof.
 
9
6
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
3-5 Years
Athens,AL
I was talking about the mounts in the floor board for the main hoop. I understand it being tight. Mine turned out that way holly crap !!!

thumbnail_IMG_0661.jpg
 
106
166
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Michigan
I was talking about the mounts in the floor board for the main hoop. I understand it being tight. Mine turned out that way holly crap !!!
Ah, I see...the plinth boxes. I did the same thing at the bottom of the a-pillar bars, just didn't end up installing them. I don't know how wide you made your main hoop where it meets those boxes, but I ended up having to cut a section of my door jamb/rocker out to get it welded all the way around and then weld that all back in and metal finish it. That was a pain in the arse! Wouldn't do it that way again on purpose, haha. Was my first cage build and to me it looked like I had enough room to get the welder in there. No dice, not even the MIG.

Your cage looks great, btw.

Brad
 
9
6
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
3-5 Years
Athens,AL
I put 1" blocks behind it to make sure i could get the tip in, and yes i cut the side out on one side to drop it down to weld the top BIGGGGG PNA!!! i feel Ya!!!
 
9
6
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
3-5 Years
Athens,AL
So were you going to run the cage to the engine subframe where the K Member bolts to. If so i had the same thoughts.
1670281173700.png
 
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Somewhere, when I had my websight, I had pics of me doing a cage on my rotisserie. I used a store bought cage, and drilled holes in the floor to drop the main hoops through. I then welded the tops of the tubing that attached to the main hoops. Raised them back up, welded a 1/4 inch plate under the hoops, gusseted the hoops, and welded a doubler under the floor pan. The ability to bend your own tubing is a huge benefit.
@Fabman remembers the pic, maybe he saved it. It was on photobucket.
 
The talent you people have is absolutely mind blowing. I feel satisfied when I flush my brake system, install new brakes, change plugs, etc. I can't fathom the knowledge you guys have to actually build your own parts. Incredible. And I'm older and went to school when they still had shop class. My father was a 60 year autobody man with his own shop. I worked there a bit and did the mechanical stuff when cars needed engines pulled for frame work. I never could weld.... But you folks.... such talent.
 
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The talent you people have is absolutely mind blowing. I feel satisfied when I flush my brake system, install new brakes, change plugs, etc. I can't fathom the knowledge you guys have to actually build your own parts. Incredible. And I'm older and went to school when they still had shop class. My father was a 60 year autobody man with his own shop. I worked there a bit and did the mechanical stuff when cars needed engines pulled for frame work. I never could weld.... But you folks.... such talent.
There are very talented people on here, that is one of this site's great advantages.
A classic example of this is how flyhalf got 4 guys who had never met before thursday, and they all worked together to get a national championship by Sunday.
It really was a Cinderella story, and it almost got away from us, but that's a pretty good indication of the depth of talent around here.
You still have Andrew Aqualante, Billy Johnson, and a few other heavy hitters hanging around here as well, plus fabricators like Fabman and AJ Hartman.
 

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