Any downside to running an 18x10 wheel w/o camber plates?

[Fat Boss]

Bolts set negative do take away from tire and wheel to strut clearance. That's the main negative to me.

In addition, camber bolts are undersized for the holes, have less contact area, and are located at a critical hinged load point plus are torqued to less than the requirement of the factory bolt - all in all a bad combo. I'm not sure why people go that route, is it to save money?

 

[Grant 302]

In addition, camber bolts are undersized for the holes, have less contact area, and are located at a critical hinged load point plus are torqued to less than the requirement of the factory bolt - all in all a bad combo. I'm not sure why people go that route, is it to save money?

Going to my post history on the subject, one can find that I disagree on the subject. I'm always willing to respectfully discuss or debate the concerns.

But more to your specific point, if diameter of the fastener is one's main concern, then there are 'full diameter' camber bolts from Ford. I dislike those for other reasons, as I note below.

I'm using the Eibach bolts. With the FRPP P springs, I can get a maximum of -2.5* and run them that way.

Just a side note...There are a lot of negative comments online about camber bolts. Most of it is just parroted by people who do not understand material science and fasteners in general, but heard about a guy who knew a guy who had issues with camber bolts. But that's just my unedjumacated opinion.

That's not what I've found when I was researching camber bolts. The 'horror stories' are mostly from the old style Ford bolts with a coarse thread, and for the smaller diameter/lower torque spec of the smaller bolts, and from other user error like over-torquing and cross threading where the fastener fails.

I do not agree with the 'no positive stay' comment. There is a tab on the washer that opposes the eccentric lobe that would take up any load not transferred through the strut flange. And that's regardless of the amount of adjustment.

Actually, this is the case with the Ford bolts if you make an adjustment that is less than the oval hole in the strut flange. Set yours to say -2.2 and tell me that's not true.

This fact and the need to oval the flange holes are the reasons why I'm not using the Ford bolts.


And just in case somebody else wants to comment on the smaller diameter fastener...a smaller diameter fastener of the same grade material can have more clamping force even with a lower torque spec IF it has a tighter pitch thread.

 

[DGRacing]

Bolts set negative do take away from tire and wheel to strut clearance. That's the main negative to me.

Yep. And I couldn't fit my 18x10 302r wheels up front (without spacers) if I ran increased negative camber, so I'm just on the built in camber with the M-18000-C's (like -1.25). Fine by me!

 

[Fat Boss]

I'm always willing to respectfully discuss or debate the concerns.

Sounds good to me! I'm just curious why go the route of the bolts over the plates.

 

[Fat Boss]

And just for the record my "technical adviser" is a former SCCA champ and race car builder who's currently building a SPEC Shelby GT. His knowledge of suspensions and mustangs is beyond anything I'll ever know. Me, I'm a MFG engineer and work with fasteners that range from steels to plastics so I have some knowledge there.

BTW, I hate parrots too!

 

[Grant 302]

In addition, camber bolts are undersized for the holes, have less contact area, and are located at a critical hinged load point plus are torqued to less than the requirement of the factory bolt - all in all a bad combo.

I'm not sure based on your responses...but do you disagree with my comments regarding the smaller fastener with tighter thread pitch and lower torque spec being able to have the same clamping force?

I know going through old threads and posts is tedious. But I do not see the Eibach style camber bolts a inferior to stock, and definitely not a 'bad combo'.

I haven't heard of any of these bolts failing in shear.

I've heard of some claiming that bolts have come out of adjustment, but I think most of those are from the old Ford bolts that had a courser thread pitch than the current FRPP units.

Not sure where you feel these bolts have 'less contact area' than stock. My stock bolts weren't touching or tight to the spindle/knuckle side holes on the original installation. The only thing that holds the adjustment is the clamping force through the strut flanges.

I'm not sure why people go that route, is it to save money?

I'm sure many do it to save money. I did it for the simplicity of changing two bolts over over installing potentially noisy spherical bearings. I've suspected many failures of both plates and bolts on the internet to be from user error. The fact that bolts don't adversely affect roll center was just a point in their favor, but that alone wouldn't keep me from going to plates.

Main thing missing with bolts for me is the lack of the caster adjustment.

 

[Senderofan]

camber plates look difficult (or expensive) to install... am I wrong?

I installed MM caster and camber plates....new Koni yellow dampers with lowering springs and an adjustable front swaybar this past wednesday. Took me a lot longer than most guys, I suspect....at six hours. The main things are to have the proper tools, directions and take your time. I'm not a mechanic or an engineer....just an enthusiast who likes to tinker so your experience might vary. I purchased the MMT-3 caster camber gauge....to help me get in the ballpark such that I can get the car to the alignment shop.

For me....the rear suspension has been chalk full of fun. A couple of solid hours yesterday getting to the upper control arm....getting it out and installing the new one. Lots of laughs for an overweight, middle aged man laying on ice cold concrete .

There are many manufacturers of the caster camber plates. I'm not promoting one over the other....just sharing my experience. I've also read many threads where guys use a camber bolt with much success. It's all a very personal choice....it will depend on what you want to do with the vehicle, what your budget is and what you're confortable doing or paying someone to do in terms of installation.

 

[Fat Boss]

I'm not sure based on your responses...but do you disagree with my comments regarding the smaller fastener with tighter thread pitch and lower torque spec being able to have the same clamping force?

I know going through old threads and posts is tedious. But I do not see the Eibach style camber bolts a inferior to stock, and definitely not a 'bad combo'.

I haven't heard of any of these bolts failing in shear.

I've heard of some claiming that bolts have come out of adjustment, but I think most of those are from the old Ford bolts that had a courser thread pitch than the current FRPP units.

Not sure where you feel these bolts have 'less contact area' than stock. My stock bolts weren't touching or tight to the spindle/knuckle side holes on the original installation. The only thing that holds the adjustment is the clamping force through the strut flanges.

I'm sure many do it to save money. I did it for the simplicity of changing two bolts over over installing potentially noisy spherical bearings. I've suspected many failures of both plates and bolts on the internet to be from user error. The fact that bolts don't adversely affect roll center was just a point in their favor, but that alone wouldn't keep me from going to plates.

Main thing missing with bolts for me is the lack of the caster adjustment.

I don't disagree that they can have the same clamping force. Bolts also vary so widely in designed strength and mfg variation as you know. But when the spec is what 168 lbs I'd still prefer the larger diameter bolt. I'm sure they're fine, but do question why some mfg'rs put warnings not to use them on track vehicles.

What kind of caster are you able to get? I think my last car was 7.5*

Is this what your camber bolts look like?

 

[Grant 302]

I don't disagree that they can have the same clamping force. Bolts also vary so widely in designed strength and mfg variation as you know. But when the spec is what 168 lbs I'd still prefer the larger diameter bolt. I'm sure they're fine, but do question why some mfg'rs put warnings not to use them on track vehicles.

What kind of caster are you able to get? I think my last car was 7.5*

Is this what your camber bolts look like?

Looks like what came out and what went in. My caster is still stock.

I suppose my biggest issue with the concern over the torque specs is that people seem to automatically assume that higher is better. Conversely, I think it's why there are many instances of people over torquing the 4 strut to body nuts...because they didn't think to keep the torque down to 26 ft-lbs.