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Any thoughts????

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Quote " the much anticipated electric f150"
Oh, you mean the POS that will only go 85 miles when loaded?. that f150?
I think Ford is correct in creating 2 different "businesses" one for EV, one for actual vehicles that function outside of gold cart range. This way they can effectively manage the IC stuff outside and without interference from the feds, so when the people realize the EV is not so great of an idea, they can ramp up production of vehicles.
Sadly, Ford, and GM, for the most part have given up production of cars to focus on SUVs and trucks, both the Clean Air act of 1970 (and its' increasing regulatory agencies interfering) along with a spike in gas prices in the mid 70s, then add the current situation, (artificially inflated gas prices, government forcing the big 3 to build EVs for a very small market) and almost no automobiles are produced in America anymore.
This has led to Toyota, Nissan and even VW to exploit the car business and are now starting to probe the SUV, truck markets. I remember back in the day when something like 1 American in 20 made their living out of the auto industry, I think it;s probably more like 1 in 250 today.
I'm not sure how much further they can force dealers to pony up money for an ever decreasing market, and the facade of electric vehicles.
in 10 years there probabaly won't be and American auto industry.
I'm not sure anyone in the industry has a 10 year (or more long range) plan, because of the unpredictability of fuel prices and the freaking feds that won't keep thei hands off the regulation button, as disfunctional as government is, how can you possibly develop a long range plan when the clowns running the show have no interest in the US economy (or industry) other than how they can pad their own pockets and get
re elected....
From the fine socialist folks that killed between 5 and 8 MILLION people in southeast asia, we welcome,, VInfast
 

TMSBOSS

Spending my pension on car parts and track fees.
7,072
4,435
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Illinois
They have to balance between what the brain trust in DC today, and in the future will want. The logical way forward is with electric via nuclear power to expand the grid. The grid MUST come first. Unfortunately, da gubbermint has placed demand way before supply upgrades. One party has been anti-nuke since the seventies. It will take a come to jesus between those who don't want and those who want within that party before progress can be made. Then business will have a somewhat clear path. Until then, business has to adapt to the stupidity any way they can. Why split ICE from EV?? Besides the tech being very different. If one tubes, via government change, the other survives.
Anything beyond 50% EV is also a lie. Electric "Commuter cars" make perfect sense. If you have to drive a distance, ICE is the only solution. Two hour stops every 4 hours to "Refuel" is not a solution. Its the problem.
 
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If somebody could come up with a way for batteries in EV's to be charged while the vehicle is in use ( not rely on charging stations).....that would make EV's GOLDEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it would also be impossible, even if you were able to input the same amount of energy as used, there would still be frictional and resistance considerations that would always make the charging end of the deal fall behind.
 
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They have to balance between what the brain trust in DC today, and in the future will want. The logical way forward is with electric via nuclear power to expand the grid. The grid MUST come first. Unfortunately, da gubbermint has placed demand way before supply upgrades. One party has been anti-nuke since the seventies. It will take a come to jesus between those who don't want and those who want within that party before progress can be made. Then business will have a somewhat clear path. Until then, business has to adapt to the stupidity any way they can. Why split ICE from EV?? Besides the tech being very different. If one tubes, via government change, the other survives.
Anything beyond 50% EV is also a lie. Electric "Commuter cars" make perfect sense. If you have to drive a distance, ICE is the only solution. Two hour stops every 4 hours to "Refuel" is not a solution. Its the problem.
This is pretty much spot on, the same group of whackos that wiped out the nuclear energy source is now looking for an efficient energy source.. that horse has left the stable. The US Navy has proven over and over how efficient nuclear power can be, several years ago an island in the Carribean got slammed with a hurricane, the Navy pulled a carrier over and powerred their grid for about 3 weeks until they could get things up and running.
And don't fall for the "zero" emissions song and dance, when the feds mean "zero" emissions they are measuring that at the tailpipe (which of course EVs don't have) so they claim "zero" emissions, when in the real world, it's not gerbils powering those charging stations.
Those folks are now in a Catch 22, they torched the very same power source that they need right now.. I'm not surprised they can't see the future past wednesday.
 

TMSBOSS

Spending my pension on car parts and track fees.
7,072
4,435
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Illinois
Unfortunately neither side will push nuclear power. If the left does, they will be crushed under the weight of former actions. If the right pushes nukes, the left will continue to blame the dooms day clan for trying to ruin the world in one big mushroom cloud.
If we just had term limits, the new folks could blame the old and we could move on with a solution. Personally, if electric works for folks, let them go that way. Let the city commuters sit in traffic with their electric air conditions working in their EVs. It just won’t work for much of the driving I do.
Wouldn‘t it be ironic if the present HOV lanes which EV drivers flock to now are converted over to ICE lanes to lower idle time and the excess omissions idling causes. Lol. Some day
 

GB899

NO REGRETS
466
422
Nebraska
Ford is doing the right thing separating the 2... the 2 modalities may be the reason, but clipping the wings of dealerships may be more of an incentive... corporate has lost control of the dealers and their profits... I think it is a "more for me less for thee kinda thing.."
 
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Exp. Type
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10-20 Years
75024
So I just traded my F150 lightning back for an ICE truck, because of the limitations mentioned - limited working (ie towing) range, and non-existent high speed (DC) charging in non metro areas. I get the idea to add some charging infrastructure - give your customers an easy off ramp to any ford dealer to give their EV a boost, especially in rural towns. But pushing all of the cost burden to the dealer is wrong, Ford should be a better partner than that.

The lightning drove and handled great, kudos to the engineering team. But so many factors can degrade the range (weather, load, highway driving), and those are not hidden from the driver (like today's gauges in ICE cars - always reading normal) - so you see you range shrink daily - makes for a lot of anxiety. It worked great as a commuter - 80mi/day, and for towing short hauls. But it did not make sense, at it's price point, to have to make all the compromises.

I agree with everyone's observations - we need nuclear power, more grid, and more fast charging to make it all work. Not sure we can even get to 2 out of 3 with the politics and profit taking. But hey, if they solve some emissions in the metros, I guess it's ok. The power plants can mess up the air quality in the sticks where no one yells about it.
 
5,147
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So I just traded my F150 lightning back for an ICE truck, because of the limitations mentioned - limited working (ie towing) range, and non-existent high speed (DC) charging in non metro areas. I get the idea to add some charging infrastructure - give your customers an easy off ramp to any ford dealer to give their EV a boost, especially in rural towns. But pushing all of the cost burden to the dealer is wrong, Ford should be a better partner than that.

The lightning drove and handled great, kudos to the engineering team. But so many factors can degrade the range (weather, load, highway driving), and those are not hidden from the driver (like today's gauges in ICE cars - always reading normal) - so you see you range shrink daily - makes for a lot of anxiety. It worked great as a commuter - 80mi/day, and for towing short hauls. But it did not make sense, at it's price point, to have to make all the compromises.

I agree with everyone's observations - we need nuclear power, more grid, and more fast charging to make it all work. Not sure we can even get to 2 out of 3 with the politics and profit taking. But hey, if they solve some emissions in the metros, I guess it's ok. The power plants can mess up the air quality in the sticks where no one yells about it.
That reminds me, I need to go out back and burn some brush I cut down.
 
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If somebody could come up with a way for batteries in EV's to be charged while the vehicle is in use ( not rely on charging stations).....that would make EV's GOLDEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Things are only impossible until they're not. What you describe is currently being tested. I didn't think it would be efficient enough, but maybe it is. https://www.popularmechanics.com/ca...8/electrified-road-charges-your-ev-on-the-go/

Ford is making the right call on the EV Dealer Tiers. The customers want to be able to buy a car without all the dealership BS on pricing. Tesla paved the way for people to have a stress free buying experience, and Ford took notice. Further, Ford realized that the training and fixturing/tools for servicing EVs is different than for ICE cars. Ford is being proactive and cementing their 2nd place standings in EV sales by ensuring customers have a smooth experience, whether it be the sales or service side of the interaction.

Below was copied from the Mach-E forum. It breaks down the two tiers the dealers had to choose from, should they decide to participate. The eye popping number is the $85k/ea cost of the Level 3 "Fast Chargers." This is of course in addition to the infrastructure one needs to put in place to carry that much current to the charging station(s). Keep that $85k number in mind whenever you read or think about the fast chargers being planned around the country and world. On a side note, I'm an investor in copper mining companies because you know damn well there's going to be a LOT of heavy, heavy copper cables laid to support these charging station installs.


Ford CEO Jim Farley has just announced today that 1,920 Ford dealers (out of almost 3,000) have enrolled in the Model e program for 2024 to 2026. Here's the breakdown of what tiers the participating dealers chose:
  • 1,659 chose the Certified Elite tier.
  • 261 chose the Certified tier.
Under the program, Ford dealers can choose from one of two tiers to become “EV certified.” The lower tier requires a $500K initial investment and includes:
  • Repair and maintenance
  • One public DC fast charger
  • No EVs to show (BTO only)
  • No presence on Ford.com.
The higher “Certified Elite” tier includes two public DC fast chargers, demo units, rapid replenishment, and a presence on Ford.com but will cost around $1 million to $1.2 million.

Dealers not opting to participate in the Model e program will have another opportunity to participate come 2025.





Summary of the different tiers by @Mach-Lee

Ford Next-Generation EV Certification Requirements
(by December 2, 2022):
  • At least two 32A or greater Level 2 chargers
    • At least one "Front" L2 EVSE available for customer use
      • At least one "Back" L2 EVSE or 14-50 outlet for service use
NEMA 14-50 outlets for at least 10% of service bays
  • All required EV shop equipment including
    • Pneumatic TIM applicator gun
      • Battery lift table
      • Smoke machine and adapters for leak testing pack
      • Rescue and cell balancing chargers
      • F150 Lightning and Mach-E service tool kits
      • Dealership personnel have completed all required EV training
      • Key sales, finance, service, and parts employees must complete basic EV training
      • At least one EV-certified technician that can perform HV battery repair

Ford Model e Certified Requirements (by January 1, 2024):
  • At least five 80A Level 2 chargers ($5k/ea plus installation)
    • Two 32A chargers may replace one 80A charger
      • Must be accessible on Blue Oval Charge Network
      • Six 80A chargers required by 2026
      • At least one 120 kW or greater Level 3 charger ($85k/ea plus installation)
      • Must have two CCS connectors
      • Must be for-pay on Blue Oval Charge Network
      • Must support Plug and Charge
      • Must be available to the public 24/7 in a secure, well-lit location
      • Must share real-time availability via cellular
      • NEMA 14-50 outlets for at least 50% of service bays
      • Up to a maximum of 11 outlets
All current EV service tools required
5000 lb forklift
Required Model e employee training
Limit of 25 EVs sold per year
  • Must sell EVs online with non-negotiable pricing
    • Final transaction price must match price listed on Ford.com

Ford Model e Certified Elite Requirements (by January 1, 2024):
All of the above plus:
  • At least two120 kW or greater Level 3 chargers
    • Three L3 chargers required by 2026
Additional training requirements
No limit on EVs sold per year
Dealers that do not meet the new Model e requirements by January 1, 2024 will stop selling EVs at that time.
 
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So I have to ask, what's in it for the dealers?
In the past you could order a vehicle plain Jane ( the dealership made.. say $500 after expenses) or you could buy our 69 shelby gt500 with the dual quads, limited slip unit, KR package with power steering and air, and the dealership made ($6K) on it.
Now everything is a package, base, Gt, Shelby, the profits are pretty much pre set by the factory, now they will require a significant expenditure on the dealer, any government subsidies for the building of EVs prolly won't be passed on, and the buyer gets a cut from the feds as well.
Sounds more to me like they are trying to squeeze the dealers out of the equation.
I guess the old school dealerships in Resume Speed, Wyoming won't be selling electrics along with their F350s and tractors.
 

TMSBOSS

Spending my pension on car parts and track fees.
7,072
4,435
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Illinois
the showroom makes money on the sale, the service department after. A dealership will have to have the package to profit. No service means no sales. Why some dealerships chose the lessor package? Size of client base maybe. Cash available?
The last time I bought a vehicle off the lot, no internet, haggle with the salesman sort of deal Was 1999. Since, I find the vehicle I want, contacted my dealer and let them know where to get my vehicle. They gave me the numbers, I said yes or no. In my experience, Ford is not forcing a new vehicle reality, they are moving forward with the current reality.
The dealership I worked for in high school built a new state of the art facility a few years back. They are doing great business now. Service again is carrying the business. Why?? Good techs, sure. The key was their new Internet cafe. Yep, make an appointment for service, bring your laptop and work in the service lounge which is as comfortable as any business class lounge at an international airport.
Ya gots ta change with the times or be left behind wondering why.
 

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