Anyone dry--sumped their Coyote-based engine?

[honeybadger]

have you considered an accusump?

I have one plumbed in now. It's been great. I've never seen it come on while on track. I think oil pressure would need to dip below 30 PSI for it to open.

you don't run any data system? Even a racecapture/Track or solo/soloII DL would do a lot for you (I'm obviously a big AS/L fan as I run mostly the racecapture stuff and I hate my aim smartycam with a fiery passion)

Given how much you have into the motor and track time - I'd definitely feed some data into that smartycam (or have a data readout like I have)

This is what I have. The "temp" that's not showing it supposed to be head temps. I selected the wrong input. But I don't think the AIM pulls oil pressure

Edit: Here's what the Solo 2 DL pulls. No oil pressure. Not sure the ECU is actually capturing that

 

[RES_22]

Stupid question: Any change in surface condition (slippery patch, bumps) just before/during the event @ ~0.8s....or is the g-ripple caused by driver inputs only?

Did you detect any significant change in oil temp within a sec or so following the pressure drop to ~50 @ ~0.8s?...I see that prs recovers nicely within ~0.2s. It would be surprising if oil temp spiked, since the prs "bottomed out" @ only ~50...but I get why you're thinking about it for sure.

FWIW...I saw 2 dry sump, well-prepped C6 Z06s lose their bottom ends spectacularly due to oil starvation....Mosport and VIR. Fantastic shows. Different animal (Mahle Ti rods) than a Coyote...but for sure something to consider before deserting a fantastically well-developed system like Chris has sweated over for ages .

 

[captdistraction]

For the aim, there's an updated preset you can ask them for - I don't have a copy of it but I'll reach out and see if I can get one. Is yours an early 2017 or early 2017? If early I can test it against my 2016 and see if the values are there to grab (or custom import) as there is the sensor that feeds the dash (though unknown if that is sent via canbus - I'd have to do some reading)

For RES, the bottom of my graphs were distance in miles (can be switched to time, and despite picking 3 1:53.8X laps, I wanted to keep the graphs as close as I could based on position on track). The differences in laps are just input related, and that's a much longer timeframe:



No changes in surface really - just entry to a right hander that's fast in with significant trailbrake when I'm doing well, or more shallow trailbrake when I'm not (the earlier drops as I brake earlier). No changes in temp. the data can be seen at: https://podium.live/events/nasa-az-st2-chuckwalla-2-20-race/device/50mustang and you can select laps to compare, edit and hide graphs, etc.

 

[honeybadger]

For the aim, there's an updated preset you can ask them for - I don't have a copy of it but I'll reach out and see if I can get one. Is yours an early 2017 or early 2017? If early I can test it against my 2016 and see if the values are there to grab (or custom import) as there is the sensor that feeds the dash (though unknown if that is sent via canbus - I'd have to do some reading)

For RES, the bottom of my graphs were distance in miles (can be switched to time, and despite picking 3 1:53.8X laps, I wanted to keep the graphs as close as I could based on position on track). The differences in laps are just input related, and that's a much longer timeframe:
View attachment 73214


No changes in surface really - just entry to a right hander that's fast in with significant trailbrake when I'm doing well, or more shallow trailbrake when I'm not (the earlier drops as I brake earlier). No changes in temp. the data can be seen at: https://podium.live/events/nasa-az-st2-chuckwalla-2-20-race/device/50mustang and you can select laps to compare, edit and hide graphs, etc.

Early 2017 car. Built September 2016, IIRC

 

[RES_22]

For RES, the bottom of my graphs were distance in miles (can be switched to time, and despite picking 3 1:53.8X laps, I wanted to keep the graphs as close as I could based on position on track). The differences in laps are just input related, and that's a much longer timeframe:

Thanks Chris. That's crazy stable temp, so perhaps the drop to ~50psi is due more to relative "head" at the pickup as the height of the surface of the oil fluctuates during cornering vs density/temp effects?

Whatever the mechanism might be...I'd still cut'n'paste the solid proven oil control system that you've developed for my race car (if I was building one)..spend my money and unashamedly copy yours.

 

[captdistraction]

bumping this one up - I'm really debating what I want to do next with mine. Either try a better windage/crank scraper, or go full dry sump.

 

[flyhalf]

bumping this one up - I'm really debating what I want to do next with mine. Either try a better windage/crank scraper, or go full dry sump.

Did you have issue now u opened your engine?

 

[blacksheep-1]

FYI.. these are what the dragster guys are running..

Thread 'Coyote crank girdle' https://trackmustangsonline.com/threads/coyote-crank-girdle.19450/

 

[captdistraction]

Did you have issue now u opened your engine?

yes, I opened the engine covers to find lots of scrap metal - the oil pump had fragmented, and I thought I had built basically the most developed wet sump I could (sans crank scraper - that was one piece missing, but I don't believe that would have prevented the pump failure).

 

[JAJ]

yes, I opened the engine covers to find lots of scrap metal - the oil pump had fragmented, and I thought I had built basically the most developed wet sump I could (sans crank scraper - that was one piece missing, but I don't believe that would have prevented the pump failure).

Keep in mind that not all oil pump failures are failures of the oil pump. @honeybadger tore his engine down the first time after bits of broken valve spring showed up in his sump. While some fragments had scored the inside of the oil pump housing they apparently didn't get between the gears directly. Had they done so, he'd likely have had an "oil pump failure" and reacted accordingly, presumably missing the bits of valve spring because they'd just be more shrapnel inside the damaged engine. If that same issue had happened with his new dry sump setup, the engine and dry sump system damage would have been vastly more expensive than it was.

 

[honeybadger]

bumping this one up - I'm really debating what I want to do next with mine. Either try a better windage/crank scraper, or go full dry sump.

Last time I'll say my piece and then I'll quit being a broken record -

I know a few folks around here are having good luck with well-done wet sumps, but I still don't think it's the way to go. Every. Race. Team. runs a drysump. Every race car Ford builds for professional racing is dry sumped. They run cooler, give you "free" power, offer more reliable oil pressure, etc. They're really the only way to go, IMHO.

As another data point, all the racers that run coyotes in their Factory Five Cobras and Daytonas run drysumps as well - they've found them necessary and have no issues after making the change.

And while I know folks like Fab have had no issues with their wet sump kit, I'd need to see it tested in my own environment (COTA levels of heat, speed, grip, etc.) before I could take that plunge again. In the end, I'd rather drop a drysump kit on the engine and forget about it. I know I'll be good for 4.5-6 hours of track use a weekend without worrying about it.

 

[honeybadger]

Keep in mind that not all oil pump failures are failures of the oil pump. @honeybadger tore his engine down the first time after bits of broken valve spring showed up in his sump. While some fragments had scored the inside of the oil pump housing they apparently didn't get between the gears directly. Had they done so, he'd likely have had an "oil pump failure" and reacted accordingly, presumably missing the bits of valve spring because they'd just be more shrapnel inside the damaged engine. If that same issue had happened with his new dry sump setup, the engine and dry sump system damage would have been vastly more expensive than it was.

I'm not so sure these days that the wear and tear on my oil pump was actually caused by any pieces getting into it. Every pump housing i've taken apart since has had similar (albeit less severe) wear and tear.

 

[captdistraction]

for sure - in my case no metal was missing from anywhere else - all the broken

Keep in mind that not all oil pump failures are failures of the oil pump. @honeybadger tore his engine down the first time after bits of broken valve spring showed up in his sump. While some fragments had scored the inside of the oil pump housing they apparently didn't get between the gears directly. Had they done so, he'd likely have had an "oil pump failure" and reacted accordingly, presumably missing the bits of valve spring because they'd just be more shrapnel inside the damaged engine. If that same issue had happened with his new dry sump setup, the engine and dry sump system damage would have been vastly more expensive than it was.

Understood, in my case everything is accounted for, no metal missing anywhere besides the retaining tab cover for the ratchet on a primary chain tensioner, and I found that on a pan magnet. All 32 lifter clips intact, etc.

We don't know why my pump failed, my best guess is some sort of deflection then friction/heat event but what would distort the housing so significantly?

 

[cholmes1]

Is there a dry sump kit/system that is most frequently used by FRPP supported vehicles?

I agree with @honeybadger that I cannot recall the last fully manufacturer sponsored race vehicle I saw without a dry sump system. I was amazed when the ‘14-‘15 Z/28 came with one. Entry price is high but, to a degree, it’s one less thing to fear

 

[captdistraction]

I think the Multimatic/GT4 cars use a Dailey system - wild billet pan with integrated pump on it. About $11k to do based on my inquiries.

Aviad is seen on lots of the cobra/coyote cars, uses the more traditional hose-based pickup. You can get one of those together in the $4500-5500 range.

 

[honeybadger]

I think the Multimatic/GT4 cars use a Dailey system - wild billet pan with integrated pump on it. About $11k to do based on my inquiries.

Aviad is seen on lots of the cobra/coyote cars, uses the more traditional hose-based pickup. You can get one of those together in the $4500-5500 range.

What’s driving the cost that high? I’m at about $7.1k all in. Just ordered my tank two days ago - only have lines to go. I paid $5.8k for the kit from Daily (pump, oil air separator, belts, sprockets, ati balancer and custom hub, and the billet pan)

 

[honeybadger]

Is there a dry sump kit/system that is most frequently used by FRPP supported vehicles?

I agree with @honeybadger that I cannot recall the last fully manufacturer sponsored race vehicle I saw without a dry sump system. I was amazed when the ‘14-‘15 Z/28 came with one. Entry price is high but, to a degree, it’s one less thing to fear

And @captdistraction is right. The GT4 cars run the Dailey system with a custom oil tank.

 

[captdistraction]

What’s driving the cost that high? I’m at about $7.1k all in. Just ordered my tank two days ago - only have lines to go. I paid $5.8k for the kit from Daily (pump, oil air separator, belts, sprockets, ati balancer and custom hub, and the billet pan)

How long ago did you order the kit? My inquiries came back around 8500 for just the pan and pump/drive then you have the tank, lines and all the ancillaries to get it plumbed up. 5.8k is significantly better - would change how I look at these.
I still have no idea what I’m doing, tearing down the backup shortblock as it has issues needing addressing as well - not sure wetsump drysump or any other aspect

 

[cholmes1]

Completely uncertain of cost, but RY may be worth contacting as well if you are pricing options…their IMSA setup looks pretty good

IMSA Michelin Pilot Challenge | Roush Yates Engines

 

[honeybadger]

How long ago did you order the kit? My inquiries came back around 8500 for just the pan and pump/drive then you have the tank, lines and all the ancillaries to get it plumbed up. 5.8k is significantly better - would change how I look at these.
I still have no idea what I’m doing, tearing down the backup shortblock as it has issues needing addressing as well - not sure wetsump drysump or any other aspect

Whoa. Is that through Dailey himself? I ordered mine direct from Bill in May 2022.

Completely uncertain of cost, but RY may be worth contacting as well if you are pricing options…their IMSA setup looks pretty good

IMSA Michelin Pilot Challenge | Roush Yates Engines

They order through Dailey. All the same kit.