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Anyone find a fix for fuel sloshing and starvation?

AdmirC

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I've searches the forum and all threads seem to kind of end without a conclusion. I've had bad fuel starvation this year mostly on long left turns now with 305 NT01s. Anything below 3/4 of a tank and I can feel the surge on corner exit. Has anyone found a solution? There have been some guys that have baffled the tank to try to minimize this but maybe they can chime in if it worked. I'm toying around with the idea of some sort of a transfer pump to try to keep fuel in the main pump housing at all times but would like to know if anyone has found a simpler solution. Thanks.
 

AdmirC

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I see, how would that work for a dual purpose car as it seems kind of sketchy just in case one of the lines leaks into the trunk. Also it seems that it has its own pump inside the surge tank, do you still use the original pump in the fuel tank to fill the surge tank?
 

67GTA

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I've had this happen on my '05 GT exiting turn 2 at Charlotte. I had 1/4 tank showing on the gauge, so not quite as drastic a problem. Has anybody used a fuel mat? Will this even work with an "in-tank" pump? Link to Holley's mat options is below.

The owner in the post on the link above mentioned hydramats as a band-aid fix that he tried.
Tagging both @boardkat and @captdistraction here, as these guys are currently running the Radium surge tanks after trying other fixes - they will best able to offer advice.
 

AdmirC

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Does the surge tank require a return style fuel system? I'm trying to wrap my head around how you could integrate this with a returnless system.
 

captdistraction

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it does require a return, but you can leave your stock tank unmodified.

Mine is setup this way: the stock tank outlet is connected to a quick release-to-an6 fitting, then plumbed to the inlet on the surge tank. The surge tanks's outlet is connected to the line that used to connect to the outlet on the tank (using another an6-quick disconnect fitting). For return from the surge tank to the oem fuel tank, I have a line going to the factory filler tube where it meets the tank, and using a adapter fitting like this: http://www.radiumauto.com/Barbed-Hose-Adapters-with-14-NPT-Port-P834.aspx which I have spliced into the fuel fillter midway through the rubber line. That way return fuel just hits the filler near the tank. There's no conversion up front and the radium surge tank has the pressure regulator integrated into it. Set to 58-60psi at idle and off you go.
 

AdmirC

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it does require a return, but you can leave your stock tank unmodified.

Mine is setup this way: the stock tank outlet is connected to a quick release-to-an6 fitting, then plumbed to the inlet on the surge tank. The surge tanks's outlet is connected to the line that used to connect to the outlet on the tank (using another an6-quick disconnect fitting). For return from the surge tank to the oem fuel tank, I have a line going to the factory filler tube where it meets the tank, and using a adapter fitting like this: http://www.radiumauto.com/Barbed-Hose-Adapters-with-14-NPT-Port-P834.aspx which I have spliced into the fuel fillter midway through the rubber line. That way return fuel just hits the filler near the tank. There's no conversion up front and the radium surge tank has the pressure regulator integrated into it. Set to 58-60psi at idle and off you go.
That seems pretty simple, so is there another pump in the surge tank to supply the main pressure and the OEM pump supplies the surge tank then? Also how do you control the pump in the surge tank, wire it through a relay and a ignition source?
 

flyhalf

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Hydramat accordingnto edgemotorsport works. However the key is tonkeep the sponge in place. They used magnets. To secure the mat/sponge withnfew magnets outside the tank wall. Apperently hydramat has magnets. But i don't have direct experience. Frank told me he have tried hydramat but after 3 laps everythimgnwas a mess because he didnt "secure it" so the sponge was sliding around.

Hydramat seems an easier fix. If Secured?
Still investigating
 

AdmirC

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I have a plan, trying to avoid doing the surge tank for now as don't want to plum all those lines and its not a track only car. Also a little sketchy without a true firewall in the trunk. I want to strap a fuel pump to the right side level sender assembly, run that pump off a switch on the dash and use it for track only, route the aux pump with an in tank submersible line to the basket of the main pump. That way it will always be priming fuel into the basket of the main pump and it should always have some in the basket. I'm leaving all the stock lines inside so the original fuel system will function as designed when not using the the extra pump. You could also get another OEM fuel pump assembly in the right side and do the same thing which would be cleaner and I may go this route but it was just cheaper to get a standard Carter fuel pump from rock auto and test how well it works first. I ordered all the parts and will be doing a little write up. I'm in no way saying this is the right way to do it but I want to find a cost effective and simple solution with as little modification to the vehicles stock fuel system as possible.
 

captdistraction

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That seems pretty simple, so is there another pump in the surge tank to supply the main pressure and the OEM pump supplies the surge tank then? Also how do you control the pump in the surge tank, wire it through a relay and a ignition source?
The surge tank pump is activated off the fuel pump driver module in the trunk, triggered just like the stock pump. So the stock dual pump arrangement (lift pump plus main pump) effectively become just a lift pump, and the surge tank pump is what feeds the rails. Works incredibly well, here's a fuel pressure trace from a recent very twisty track weekend with the fuel level at 8% (and g-sum - summed positive gforce values for both x/y to demonstrate load on the tank):

1591720946584.png

1591721031356.png
 

80KM2E

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Hey Admir, nice seeing you out at Mission. I was thinking about the issues you experienced with the fuel or" surge" and you mentioned it happens on corners. Just curious if you are running the race ABS module or have traction turned all the way off? I have suspicions this could be unrelated to fueling and the surges you are experiencing could be from the intrusive ABS system / AdvanceTrac. I had a lot of issues with this earlier on and when the system intrudes on driving it does have a "surge" feeling which could lead you into thinking it could be fuel starve which these cars don't typically suffer from at least in my experience.
 

captdistraction

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Hey Admir, nice seeing you out at Mission. I was thinking about the issues you experienced with the fuel or" surge" and you mentioned it happens on corners. Just curious if you are running the race ABS module or have traction turned all the way off? I have suspicions this could be unrelated to fueling and the surges you are experiencing could be from the intrusive ABS system / AdvanceTrac. I had a lot of issues with this earlier on and when the system intrudes on driving it does have a "surge" feeling which could lead you into thinking it could be fuel starve which these cars don't typically suffer from at least in my experience.
Many S197 cars can have issues with fuel surge especially on left hand turns. I'd have issues with cutout beneath 1/3 a tank, others have mentioned 1/2 tank.

However, abs intervention feels very similar.
 

AdmirC

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Hey Admir, nice seeing you out at Mission. I was thinking about the issues you experienced with the fuel or" surge" and you mentioned it happens on corners. Just curious if you are running the race ABS module or have traction turned all the way off? I have suspicions this could be unrelated to fueling and the surges you are experiencing could be from the intrusive ABS system / AdvanceTrac. I had a lot of issues with this earlier on and when the system intrudes on driving it does have a "surge" feeling which could lead you into thinking it could be fuel starve which these cars don't typically suffer from at least in my experience.
I am running the stock module at the moment with all the nannies turned off. I have felt the stability system activating before and it's definently not that. This was more of a bucking/surging of the motor and also when it did it on corner exit I could see the afr's shoot up into the 16:1 range which is not good at wide open throttle. I have the aux pump coming in tomorrow and have all the other things I need to hopefully come up with a fix and I will see how this works next run. I am very surprised that your car didn't have any issues that day, are you on the stock pump? These pumps can be taxed out between supplying the engine and syphoning the fuel from the other tank as well.
 

Tay

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I've searches the forum and all threads seem to kind of end without a conclusion. I've had bad fuel starvation this year mostly on long left turns now with 305 NT01s. Anything below 3/4 of a tank and I can feel the surge on corner exit. Has anyone found a solution? There have been some guys that have baffled the tank to try to minimize this but maybe they can chime in if it worked. I'm toying around with the idea of some sort of a transfer pump to try to keep fuel in the main pump housing at all times but would like to know if anyone has found a simpler solution. Thanks.
AdmirC, check this out. Its a fuel pump and surge tank in one. No need for an external surge take. Just released from Aftermarket Industries: https://aftermarketindustries.com.a...197-and-s550-surge-tank-swirl-pot-fuel-system
 

boardkat

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AdmirC, check this out. Its a fuel pump and surge tank in one. No need for an external surge take. Just released from Aftermarket Industries: https://aftermarketindustries.com.a...197-and-s550-surge-tank-swirl-pot-fuel-system
i'd want to know what the capacity of that internal swirl pot is (the external tank i have is just under 1/2 gallon with dual 465s within). i have a similar basket from radium, and it didn't do a great job keeping enough fuel contained before starving on CCW configs under 1/2 tank. that said, the design seems sound and would definitely save time and money if it works, especially on an OEM fuel system!
 

Grant Osborn

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I've searches the forum and all threads seem to kind of end without a conclusion. I've had bad fuel starvation this year mostly on long left turns now with 305 NT01s. Anything below 3/4 of a tank and I can feel the surge on corner exit. Has anyone found a solution? There have been some guys that have baffled the tank to try to minimize this but maybe they can chime in if it worked. I'm toying around with the idea of some sort of a transfer pump to try to keep fuel in the main pump housing at all times but would like to know if anyone has found a simpler solution. Thanks.
Might be a good time to look into a racing fuel cell. These units work great in both every day drivers and track only dedicated vehicles. Race Safe and ATL are a couple of manufacturers that immediately come to mind. I have a Race Safe installed in a track dedicated 97' cobra that handles fuel delivery nicely on the long high speed sweepers at Willow Springs. Look for a cell that is SFI and/or FIA certified. Racing cells are also much safer in track environments. The folks at the previously mentioned outfits should have a solution for your application. Good luck in your search
 

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