Best HPDE Tires and Pads for a Beginner?

[Bill Pemberton]

Byron , nice note, nice comment and now is the time for understanding , concern and openness -- great to be with a group of Tracksters who are open with their fellow racing friends.

 

[byronj]

Thanks @Bill Pemberton I know a lot of society is going through a weird and changing time and it has to be difficult on all ends. Making sure your supply vendor is on it, your CNC machine shop, ETC. Pleasing the consumer... We had a world with instant gratification and now we need to step back. I kinda like the sit and wait world we reverted to just like the 80s... I remember waiting two months for a skateboard back in the 80s but when it showed up... LIFE was EPIC.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The Hawk pads are definitely the best cost effective route. I've read they tend to be harsh on rotors but don't know how factual that is.

That may depend on how much street driving you throw at them. I've found that over periods of near-exclusive street driving that even Hawk's HP+ formulation - what Hawk is calling their streetable (entry level) track pad - wears rotors much faster than Carbotech's XP12. Like at least three times as fast, and I can't imagine that any DTC with good cold bite below 40°F would be any less abrasive. Rotor wear rates for XP's and G-loc R's up through 12 are actually closer to HPS rotor wear rates in street duty, so I've never bothered to swap them out between track days . . . or track seasons.

There was no creep-and-beep commuter driving involved in my observations (I was already retired by then), and not a whole lot of driving in heavy slow-moving weekend traffic either.

On edit, this was on a 4.6L S197 . . . which while slower than a 5.0 S-anything only featured 12.4" 2-piston sliding caliper front brakes at the time of these observations.


Norm

 

[JDee]

That may depend on how much street driving you throw at them. I've found that over periods of near-exclusive street driving that even Hawk's HP+ formulation - what Hawk is calling their streetable (entry level) track pad - wears rotors much faster than Carbotech's XP12. Like at least three times as fast, and I can't imagine that any DTC with good cold bite below 40°F would be any less abrasive. Rotor wear rates for XP's and G-loc R's up through 12 are actually closer to HPS rotor wear rates in street duty, so I've never bothered to swap them out between track days . . . or track seasons.

There was no creep-and-beep commuter driving involved in my observations (I was already retired by then), and not a whole lot of driving in heavy slow-moving weekend traffic either.

On edit, this was on a 4.6L S197 . . . which while slower than a 5.0 S-anything only featured 12.4" 2-piston sliding caliper front brakes at the time of these observations.


Norm

My Hawk dealer told me DO NOT (his emphasis) drive the DTC track pads in anything approaching cold weather, that's when they eat rotors. I have no trouble with them being hard on rotors when used strictly as a track pad in normal track weather, which is all they're meant for. I drive them on the street, but in cold weather the car is asleep in the garage.
I know lots of people don't like Hawk pads, but I find that overall they are a decent pad, all things considered.
IMHO.
YMMV.

 

[BmacIL]

If Raybestos makes pads for your year model/brake setup, buy them in the ST47 version for the front and ST43 in the rear. You will not regret it! The ST47s are their most aggressive compound, but they're very easy on rotors (not like AutoZone pads, obviously, but for a racing pad).

I use them for AutoX and HPDE on O'reilly Auto rotors. They work fine when cold. They are noisy (obviously), but they make up for it by stopping.

I didn't expect the ST47 to work well for AutoX....good to know for the future.

 

[GimpyHSHS]

I didn't expect the ST47 to work well for AutoX....good to know for the future.

I didn't know what to expect! I primarily bought them for my Hallett Track days. But before I took them to Hallett, I ran 16 AutoX runs on a Sunday. With the 16 runs, a full track day (consisting of (6) 15-20 minute sessions) in the sun, and a second Hallett day in the rain, there's virtually no wear on the rotors, even with no cooling at Hallett. And I wasn't taking it easy on the brakes. I was going pretty deep in every corner, probably deeper than it makes sense to for an HPDE day, but I was there to have fun.


(And yes, I know my brake calipers and wheels look like hell this was taken right after we came back from Hallett, car was still on the trailer. Believe it or not, I washed the wheels before we went...)

 

[BmacIL]

I didn't know what to expect! I primarily bought them for my Hallett Track days. But before I took them to Hallett, I ran 16 AutoX runs on a Sunday. With the 16 runs, a full track day (consisting of (6) 15-20 minute sessions) in the sun, and a second Hallett day in the rain, there's virtually no wear on the rotors, even with no cooling at Hallett. And I wasn't taking it easy on the brakes. I was going pretty deep in every corner, probably deeper than it makes sense to for an HPDE day, but I was there to have fun.

View attachment 31294
(And yes, I know my brake calipers and wheels look like hell this was taken right after we came back from Hallett, car was still on the trailer. Believe it or not, I washed the wheels before we went...)

View attachment 31290

So they obviously work better when warm, but how do they compare to the Carbotech/G-LOC 10/12 range if you've used them? I run G-LOC 10/8 for autocross and tracksprints/trackcross. They still work better with a little bit of heat going through staging, but more than satisfactory for autocross.

 

[GimpyHSHS]

So they obviously work better when warm, but how do they compare to the Carbotech/G-LOC 10/12 range if you've used them? I run G-LOC 10/8 for autocross and tracksprints/trackcross. They still work better with a little bit of heat going through staging, but more than satisfactory for autocross.

Now that I am not sure on. I have never used GLOCs personally. My cousin codrove the car at the AutoX and Hallett with me and he uses GLOCs. He said they felt like a good comparison to the brakes he had on his car, BUT the comparison isn't apples to apples, as his car is an AutoX, purpose-built, 99 Pontiac T/A with an LS3, Torque Arm, Watts Link, beefier suspension, BFG Rival S etc. (We've been driving my car for the longer AutoX courses and the track days because he has a really short gear in the rear right now and only 3rd and 4th gear in the trans....weight savings bruh!)

Now the theoretical...I do think it's helpful to note that Raybestos claims a higher cold coefficient of friction on the ST47 than any other pad except the ST45 (the crossover where the ST47 μ is greater comes at around 400°, after the ST45 starts falling off).

The ST77 and ST31 pads they mention "for AutoCross" have significantly lower μ than the ST47 at all temperature ranges, including 100°.



So my uneducated takeaway when I was looking at which pads were best for me was that, even cold, when the ST47s aren't in their optimal operating temperature, they would still do just fine in comparison to other, less aggressive compounds. But I will admit to not being all that knowledgeable in this area, so if someone else has thoughts, I'd be welcome to hear them. Obviously, I know μ ratings aren't the full story when picking pads. That's just what swung me over to the ST47s, even with the knowledge that I will do much more AutoX than I will HPDE days. Since then, at least at the few events I've gotten to, I found that the ST47s felt just as consistently good as they should on paper.

My next buy will be ST43 rear pads. I'd like to get a Cobra rear setup, too, but I am going to try the ST43s alone first, to see if they help my nose-dive problem (they ought to help significantly). Cobras used vented 11.65" rears vs the non-vented 10.5" rears I currently have.

I don't have stock in Raybestos or anything so if you have a good combo, sounds like a winner to me! I would say that you're probably right, the Raybestos ST47 are not the all out best for AutoX, especially if:
-you drive to AutoCross events,
-you don't want to change pads at the event,
-you don't want to deal with the screeching at the event,
-you don't have a codriver,
-you have to wait long periods between runs,
-etc.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Ran G-Loc 12s on my ACR when I had it because I loved the feel , but I did go through them quickly ( as I expected to ) . I find with the difference in the braking system I really like 18 on the front of my Boss S , and yes they do squeak, but it is not street legal so no worries. I have found 12s work well for many on street and track and they are not overly noisy , but if you are a very aggressive with your braking they may not be optimal. Key word is very aggressive, but often braking style will dictate what you end up using. One would think an 18 would be the choice on an ACR as it is even quicker , but I preferred the feel of the 12 , as noted - sacrificing pad life. I really like the 18 for the Boss S as the mass up front is more prevalent under heavy braking.

All that said , I have a friend running a Gen V ACR-E who loves the ST-47s ( yes he has one of the rare steel rotor Viper ACRs)

 

[Norm Peterson]

My next buy will be ST43 rear pads. I'd like to get a Cobra rear setup, too, but I am going to try the ST43s alone first, to see if they help my nose-dive problem (they ought to help significantly). Cobras used vented 11.65" rears vs the non-vented 10.5" rears I currently have.

I'm wondering if 44's might be a better match with 47 fronts for autocross, where the first stop or two with 43's would make the rear relatively over-braked if braking was balanced in the brakes-fully-warmed-up condition.


Norm

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Regardless of what you go with I agree with Norm's consensus. I run R10s on the rear of my car and most of the folks I run with go with a much less aggressive pad in the rear to heat the back up faster and hopefully balance with the front.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Post #30 lightly edited for clarity.


Norm

 

[GimpyHSHS]

You guys get all the options...

If I want to stick with the Raybestos, I would have to go with the ST43s. Raybestos doesn't offer the rears for my 1995 in anything but ST43. Even the ST43 they offer are for the Cobras, which use the same caliper, but thicker (vented) rotors and thinner pads. So less bang for the buck, but at least I could use them on the GT or Cobra brake setups.

I also didn't realize exactly where this thread was located (S550 Forum) when I commented... It was just in the recent threads area and I clicked, read, and typed away. I'm still learning site navigation. I will do better in the future. Apologies to the OP for the hijack.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Save yourself some time and trouble , get ahold of KNS Brakes or Optimum Performance on this site and see what they would recommend for an SN95. I know I ran a much lower temp pad on the rear of my Cobra , many years back, but the old brain has trouble remembering 5 years back , so a bit over a couple of decades is a stretch, ha.