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S197 Black Panda Build Thread Profile - S197 Mustangs

50
39
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
A vented hood will be better than stock at high speeds for those issues, not sure how much you can quantify that but the principles are sound.
You are correct that increasing the rear ride height will help to shift vehicle balance toward neutral or oversteer compared to your current setup (as you are "extending" the lever that the weight of the car has on the rear suspension), but again, this will likely have the biggest effect in the corner entry phase as opposed to mid-corner.
You should put a test plan together of things to try and aim to change settings and figure out how the car works with each of those settings during your next track day. Stick to your plan and resist the urge to knee-jerk adjust "the other way"; you can do that after you have gathered your data. If you find things that don't work, you are still learning something useful.
Excellent sir, I will work on my plan to make the car behave more neutrally. Currently I can adjust slow speed rebound dampening and camber very generously. Give me a couple of weeks and I will present my test methodology so you (and other TMO members) can provide suggestions as to how to go about making my car more neutral. I would also like to add that after reviewing my track vidoes, I do indeed have corner entry understeer in off camber corners. I plan to purchase an AIM solo 2 DL to gather as much data as I can (and interpret) to advance in a more educated and scientific way.
Learning is a life long adventure.....savor all its offerings!!.......the dumb one misses his opportunities to move foward..................................;)
Of course! I have had a few spin outs and off road excursions and have learned to not make the same mistake twice...well..this past weekend I did spin out twice in the same spot but I shall leave that behind:ohdamn:
If you're not already doing maybe trail braking in the corners where understeer is present would help shift a bit of weight forward and help rotate the car.
Yes sir, trail braking was a helpful friend in short ~3-5 second corners, but in that sweeper which is about 15 seconds long it did get annoying TBH. Every time I go to the track I fall in love with trail braking all over again. ROTATION!
Mid-corner ON throttle or OFF throttle? Makes a big difference...

Have you made the apex and are getting to the gas...but you need to add wheel because you are pushing wide when the weight transfers aft/lose front grip?

Or ...or are you about to make the apex but see that you need to add wheel because you are pushing wide w/o touching the gas...too much energy at front contact patch?
So it is mid corner ON throttle. The apex of this particular turn ('The Carousel' going CCW in MSR Houston) is very late, about 75% of the way through the turn. I will post a video below to help me illustrate.
The understeer happens ~2-3 seconds before hitting the apex while on the gas so I must release the gas slightly to make the apex. On corner exit the car rotates nicely as I apply throttle.
It appears that your last statement represents more closely what is happening to me.
In the 2nd video (after the adjustments) you can hear me releasing the throttle (from ~85mph to ~80mph on the speedo) because the car is pushing and am going to miss the apex.
Always great to see more people flogging the 3.7 ponies out on track!

As for the advancetrac problems with the 3.7, I can offer some insight as to what I've learned from my own build.

Option 1: Boss 302r ABS module will disable both permanently (as long as it is installed) and give you improved abs programming for track use. As far as I've read, the drawbacks are that this module will light the dash up like a Christmas tree along with a chime. I found this option undesirable as my car sees extensive street use in all 4 seasons in the Northeast

Option 2: A "track" tune which will disable advancetrac. A few members have had success getting their coyote cars setup with a track tune by AED, but upon inquiry Shaun would not remotely track tune a 3.7 car. The other two major tuning houses for the 3.7, MPT nor AMR, would not help either. Eventually I found Ortiz Performance out of Texas and they were able to provide exactly what I was looking for: a specific track tune to disable advancetrac that I could flash using my SCT handheld at events and remove after the event to regain full advancetrac/traction control for the street.

Hope that helps when you are ready to take things to the next level and disable the electronic nannies

Looking forward to following you progress
-J
Excellent sir! At my home track I am keeping up with Porsche Caymans and Boxsters in the Blue Solo group (on a Green, Blue, Yellow, White scale). The car is super fun to drive at my limit! I have thought about making the jump to the BOSS 302 module. Do you know if it makes a significant difference (ABS-wise) with 200tw tires, say Falken RT660? With regards to Advancetrac, I plan to do the #5pin mod. If that proves to be undesirable, I shall hit up Ortiz when I need a tune update after I install long tube headers this Spring.
And progress you will see! I have a feeling I will be upgraded to the Yellow run group on my next event. There will be much faster drivers there!
 
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50
39
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
So this is me understeering, It is not a lot but it was terrible before adjusting my rebound and camber slightly. However, my adjustments only fixed what I would say is ~60% of it.
This is how bad it was before adjusting.

This is after increasing camber from -2.5 to -3.1, and changing rebound damping at the front from 5 clicks to 10 clicks out of 24. To me it got about 60% better.
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
6,401
5,276
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Blair, Nebraska
Watching both videos you also appear to have a better line in the second one ( imho ) but there are other dynamics that can affect understeer and oversteer, with a primary one being the tires. I did not see mention of what tires you are running ( in the two videos), what temperatures they were at, etc. Frankly with the Nankangs or the Federals you could simply have issues with them heat cycle wise ( getting old ) or the length of your track session. I have seen guys play with their suspension all day , trying to correct various issues they perceived and it was a simple case of the tires were toast or at the end of their fast cycle. The tires still had life in them tread wise, but they were inconsistent on the track.

Last year at the Mustang Roundup I ran 2019 BFG gforceR1s, knowing they were old and had sat in a cold garage for a long period of time. They looked great , but I knew they had enough races on them they were probably not going to be fast , but I did not want to get a new set or used race rubber just for the event. Cool morning I got 5-7 laps in before they started to understeer a bit, and by they end of the first day it took only 2-3 laps.

I am not saying this is your concern, but it could be part of it and just something else you might ask yourself.

AZBoss is quite correct about the hood vents , or getting a hood ( check out chicane23.com as he is the supplier for everyone else selling Tiger hoods ) to help with downforce, but even more so in your part of the US, it will cut down heat. PS- chicane23 does not list their hoods as " Tiger hoods " but they are exactly that.
 
418
432
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Snowy North
Saw the vid...as @ArizonaBOSS said, the car is settled. That leaves you with 4 main variables: tire condition/capability, ride height, throttle position and wheel input.

1. Soft hands...wheel looks ok/line ok.
2. Neutral throttle...looks/sounds mostly ok w/o knowing tire condition (assuming lowish front grip...per your braking stories) .
3. Tires are a wild card....IMO, I'd replace them if you believe that they're nearly toast/$hit baked. First rule of racing is (as Bill said)....never chase setup on worn/dead tires. Never.
4. Once on new tires...get the temps in the window, go log sector times and determine if you now have only that same issue...or none...or more. Pay attn to how you put wheel into the thing. Soft hands, smooth, decisive inputs.

Bring back your issues list and let's see where you land.
 
50
39
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Watching both videos you also appear to have a better line in the second one ( imho ) but there are other dynamics that can affect understeer and oversteer, with a primary one being the tires. I did not see mention of what tires you are running ( in the two videos), what temperatures they were at, etc. Frankly with the Nankangs or the Federals you could simply have issues with them heat cycle wise ( getting old ) or the length of your track session. I have seen guys play with their suspension all day , trying to correct various issues they perceived and it was a simple case of the tires were toast or at the end of their fast cycle. The tires still had life in them tread wise, but they were inconsistent on the track.

Last year at the Mustang Roundup I ran 2019 BFG gforceR1s, knowing they were old and had sat in a cold garage for a long period of time. They looked great , but I knew they had enough races on them they were probably not going to be fast , but I did not want to get a new set or used race rubber just for the event. Cool morning I got 5-7 laps in before they started to understeer a bit, and by they end of the first day it took only 2-3 laps.

I am not saying this is your concern, but it could be part of it and just something else you might ask yourself.

AZBoss is quite correct about the hood vents , or getting a hood ( check out chicane23.com as he is the supplier for everyone else selling Tiger hoods ) to help with downforce, but even more so in your part of the US, it will cut down heat. PS- chicane23 does not list their hoods as " Tiger hoods " but they are exactly that.
Yes sir, the line is certainly better in the 2nd video. At the moment I was running the tires right around 36 hot. But, if I am honest, they are pretty shot. I actually had the both front tires on the outside or inside (can't remember which one) thread begin to grind out (has the appearance of ground meat). I am very glad that you and the other guys pointed this out because I did not take in consideration the condition of my tires. However, they have always pushed like this in event's past (although I have always run in ~80-90F ambient temps, this last time it was ~50F), with similar settings; so, I believe my issue is not only the tires but setup as well.

And yes, I do eventually want to sell my Cervini hood and cut a hole in an oem hood to go more function than looks! I have been looking at possibly making my own vents, my budget is relatively low at the moment.
 
50
39
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Saw the vid...as @ArizonaBOSS said, the car is settled. That leaves you with 4 main variables: tire condition/capability, ride height, throttle position and wheel input.

1. Soft hands...wheel looks ok/line ok.
2. Neutral throttle...looks/sounds mostly ok w/o knowing tire condition (assuming lowish front grip...per your braking stories) .
3. Tires are a wild card....IMO, I'd replace them if you believe that they're nearly toast/$hit baked. First rule of racing is (as Bill said)....never chase setup on worn/dead tires. Never.
4. Once on new tires...get the temps in the window, go log sector times and determine if you now have only that same issue...or none...or more. Pay attn to how you put wheel into the thing. Soft hands, smooth, decisive inputs.

Bring back your issues list and let's see where you land.
Excellent sir. I have been working during my past events on smoothness and car control.
3. As I told Bill, the tires are definitely on their way out and I will take "never chase setup on worn/dead tires. Never" seriously now. There is no point in wasting time!
4 Yes, I am getting more data acquisition and will take a deep dive in February during my next event. TBH, this was my best event ever, I was able to connect turns 3-6 like never before!
 
50
39
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Thank you all for the excellent guidance. I will be coming up with a plan and present it here before I go out to my next event in February.

I do have one question, I plan to purchase a used AIM solo in order to get my hands dirty in the datalogging world. Would any one of you advise me otherwise, such as: support going out of production or it being severely outdated?

Thank you!
 
50
39
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Also another thing that I remembered. During my January event, I was told by a few people that drove behind me that they noticed a sort of bind on the rear axle. Their words where something to the end of: "It looks as if your rear inner tire wants to lift in the corners". I have poly bushings on both ends of my rear LCA; and, I have a poly bushing on the chassis side and a spherical on the diff side of my rear UCA. I then spoke with my instructor about it and he mentioned a possible bind in the poly bushings not allowing the rear axle to articulate (although I have not touched the original rear sway bar which could also be a source of bind) enough and causing the possible lift of the inner rear tire.

I also will be looking at using the anti-squat calculator to determine my anti-squat setting. A comment was mentioned during my 2nd event last year that having to much anti-squat can induce understeer; however, I was so new to the concept back then that I don't remember much more.
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
6,401
5,276
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Blair, Nebraska
Good to listen to many folks, but it might be good to get the car up in the air and just do the old " Winter Check List." It might even be worth taking it to a race shop ( who works on road course cars ) and having them look over things. I am a firm believer in having experienced mechanics look things over before I go down the rabbit hole of guessing or trying to fix something I am not sure I understand. Having a Pro check some of the things you are wondering about, may save you money and time in the long run and give you an idea of what your likely need to fix or improve.
 
50
39
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Thank you sir. Your race shop visit recommendation is a good way to start to pinpoint my perceived issues with the car. I am in Houston, TX so there should be a few around the area. I am going to start making a few calls to make an appointment in the coming week or two.
 
50
39
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Well peeps, my diff has seen better days and it grinds like a hungry whale when going in reverse. Also, after installing my stage 3 6-puck clutch in November it has brought more to evidence the wear in my diff. It got especially bad this last few days, after a fluid change, ironically. Track time will have to wait. It has been grinding since I own it back in March 2021 but the grinding is now excessive. I shall be installing new gears in it, 3.31s to be exact, which will allow me to only use 4 gears at the track. 4th will top out at ~130mph which will be enough for most tracks in the US with my power. It will be a fun yet long installation process.
 
50
39
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
I wonder if your under steering was due to poor LSD performance. Also, what hole is your BMR LCA at?
My LCA is in the middle position. However, I most definitely agree with you on my LSD. 2 weeks ago when I changed the rear diff fluid, the bottom and middle magnetic plugs were packed with the good stuff :crying:. I am getting better at connecting with my car as a driver and so before I make any other mods I want to get the diff completely refurbished. Then I can focus on getting to the bottom of my understeering issue. I guess i should add to Bill's comment in that no one should ever follow setup with busted rear gears and clutches :ohdamn:!
 
50
39
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
I've been researching quite a bit and it appears that my grinding issue is a severely worn out diff clutch pack set. I will install a new carbon set next weekend and will report out. Gotta get seat time...the Panda is yearning to go hunt some Porsches...:biggrin:
 
134
106
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Colorado Springs
Good to listen to many folks, but it might be good to get the car up in the air and just do the old " Winter Check List." It might even be worth taking it to a race shop ( who works on road course cars ) and having them look over things. I am a firm believer in having experienced mechanics look things over before I go down the rabbit hole of guessing or trying to fix something I am not sure I understand. Having a Pro check some of the things you are wondering about, may save you money and time in the long run and give you an idea of what your likely need to fix or improve.


Good advice. I have a race shop i've been taking other cars to for years and he was the reason I ended up getting the mustang vs a WRX (saw some other mustang get stuck in the snow last night and was rethinking my decision though).

During this season I am hoping to take him out for beers and pick his brain, the owner has been racing for decades in the area and is a wealth of knowledge. I bet many of the "race shops" are more than happy to talk and sell / install parts for you! My guy actually likes that i prefer to install and have him check my work then talk about what to expect on the track.
 
50
39
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Most CF ones will instruct you to get miles on the unit before you take it to the track, so keep that in mind.
I shall do Bill! That is actually something on my plan to research this afternoon. I did the same with my 6 puck clutch so break in is in order...I still have 6 weeks to my next planned event so time is on my side for now.
 
50
39
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Good advice. I have a race shop i've been taking other cars to for years and he was the reason I ended up getting the mustang vs a WRX (saw some other mustang get stuck in the snow last night and was rethinking my decision though).

During this season I am hoping to take him out for beers and pick his brain, the owner has been racing for decades in the area and is a wealth of knowledge. I bet many of the "race shops" are more than happy to talk and sell / install parts for you! My guy actually likes that i prefer to install and have him check my work then talk about what to expect on the track.
That is a path I have contemplated taking. I get the feeling that a car performance expert is just like a book. If a book is reputable, the reader will extract knowledge in a couple of weeks for which the author took years to collect.
 
134
106
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Colorado Springs
That is a path I have contemplated taking. I get the feeling that a car performance expert is just like a book. If a book is reputable, the reader will extract knowledge in a couple of weeks for which the author took years to collect.


That is exactly what I stumbled into with my mechanic Hell, I take all my vehicles there already, why not get some of that knowledge out of him while we are paying for the work!

I am reading Wooden on Leadership right now. Highly recommend for exactly what you say, he is dumping decades of leadership practice into a book that I can and already have started to apply before I finish the book.
 
50
39
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Yes indeed! I gotta add that book to my reading list. I was not much of a reader in the past but things are changing. At the moment I just begun reading 12 Rules for Life an antidote to chaos by Jordan Peterson.
Well, who knew Mustangs would guide us to reading more!
 

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