The Mustang Forum for Track & Racing Enthusiasts

Taking your Mustang to an open track/HPDE event for the first time? Do you race competitively? This forum is for you! Log in to remove most ads.

  • Welcome to the Ford Mustang forum built for owners of the Mustang GT350, BOSS 302, GT500, and all other S550, S197, SN95, Fox Body and older Mustangs set up for open track days, road racing, and/or autocross. Join our forum, interact with others, share your build, and help us strengthen this community!

S197 Black Panda Build Thread Profile - S197 Mustangs

JDee

Ancient Racer
1,562
1,616
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
halfway between Mosport and Shannonville
Yes indeed! I gotta add that book to my reading list. I was not much of a reader in the past but things are changing. At the moment I just begun reading 12 Rules for Life an antidote to chaos by Jordan Peterson.
Well, who knew Mustangs would guide us to reading more!

Peterson is a very interesting guy. Rapier sharp mind, specializes in humbling left wing zealots. Has been known to render them speechless in debates. Canadian guy too, go figure that. They haven't brainwashed us all, yet.....Though last I heard that mind had gone a little funny or something and he seems to be keeping a lower profile.
 
70
56
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Oh, the Panda WILL find its way! Reading is becoming a part of my life now. My niece and nephews are to blame. I have gotten to see them more as my children since they ask me the most complicated questions. Questions like: Are there guardian angles? Let's read the Bible for that; Why are you fat? Well, let's follow Elliot Hulse for that; Why don't you have a house? Well, lets research on how to buy properties and all the fine letter of how build a septic system and such. I am glad I am still relatively young, so that is a point to my favour! I got loads to learn and do!
 
Last edited:
70
56
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Peterson is a very interesting guy. Rapier sharp mind, specializes in humbling left wing zealots. Has been known to render them speechless in debates. Canadian guy too, go figure that. They haven't brainwashed us all, yet.....Though last I heard that mind had gone a little funny or something and he seems to be keeping a lower profile.
Well, even is he is keeping low, his legacy up until now will last for generations to come! What I have gathered mostly from him is, 'learn to think, not to be better than everyone else but to grow'.
 
10
15
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Hey fellow H-Town 'Stang tracker. With your earlier LSD talk, I wanted to share this:

The clutch-type LSD may not be worth investing much resources in. Maybe can get a T-2 take off instead.
 
70
56
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Hey fellow H-Town 'Stang tracker. With your earlier LSD talk, I wanted to share this:

The clutch-type LSD may not be worth investing much resources in. Maybe can get a T-2 take off instead.
Thank you for the input my sir. I have been off the track scene since January. A clutchless diff is certainly on my future list. I plan to get one after I 🔥 through my new clutch pack. I do hope to make it to my next local event on November. Got quite the itch to go again and break into the 1:40s!
 
10
15
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Thank you for the input my sir. I have been off the track scene since January. A clutchless diff is certainly on my future list. I plan to get one after I 🔥 through my new clutch pack. I do hope to make it to my next local event on November. Got quite the itch to go again and break into the 1:40s!
Is that next local November event Driver's Edge @ MSRH? I'll be there!
 
70
56
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Is that next local November event Driver's Edge @ MSRH? I'll be there!
I definitely want to be there but it is still TBD. There are a few things I still need to prep on the car. I made the move to change about 10 things on the car (some big, some small) since January and there is that :ohdamn:. You'll know if I'm there next weekend though. Its the only mustang with a white trunk and rear bumper with a rusty right quarter panel; you can't miss it! :biggrin:
 
70
56
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
It was awesome catching up with you over the weekend @Bree789 ! Congrats on that 1:48 - you were FLYING around MSRH!
YES SIR!!! It was definitely the best weekend thus far!! I may actually start posting on YT! Yellow group is amazing. No trains!
The car was handling beautifully over the weekend. A mustang that rotates on every turn! The rear suspension setup really paid off.:hellyeah:
 
70
56
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Well, my fellow track enthusiasts, as you can tell from @raidernixon comment, this past weekend was amazing! It was full of excitement and go-fast! I was able to achieve my goal of 4 seconds over my PB around this track which is beyond words! Everything worked to perfection, the brakes, the diff, the tires, the AIM Solo, the weather, the instructor, and of course, the driver! I was able to feel how my car was transformed from a slight-to-mild understeering car (up until January 2022) to a slight oversteer, track MACHINA!!! The car rotates beautifully on every turn no matter how slow or fast it is going! It is a bit tail-happy; but I am 100% comfortable with it!

The three biggest changes were the following:
  1. -Upgrade the grinding 2.73 to a 3.31 rear end with brand new clutches. I am loving the use of 3rd and 4th without redlining twice a lap. My car also drops about 100 lb-ft at 7300 rpm (rev limiter) from 270 lb-ft max torque, so that is no bueno.
  2. Change the lower rear trailing arms from the prone-to-binding polyurethane bushings to sphericals. The car just feels more planted, and feels as if it does not jump around as much on bumpy sections.
  3. And the biggest one. Change certain aspects of the rear geometry. The car was raised by 30mm in the back to shift some of that weight towards the back. I would love to do some corner balancing soon. According to some measurements I made, prior to this weekend, the car was running on an antisquat setting of 177%, instant center lenght was at 30" and instant center height was at 10.88". As of Nov 2022 the current settings are 71% antisquat, ic length is 56" and ic height is 8".
I also opened up the strut tower holes and set my camber at 2.6 degrees. I will run the max (3.1 degrees) my set up allows on the following event since the Falken Azenis RT-660 need it.

Plans for the next couple of months are the following:
  1. Introduce myself to left-foot braking
  2. Be braver on turns
  3. Install LTH and tune. I will go the divorced setup route if the power stays above 300whp. I want to replicate the sound of the Ginetta G55 because it is so GORGEOUS!!!!
  4. Get some ducting done for the oil cooler and front brakes.
And of course the goals are the following:
  1. With a better line, left-foot braking and the additional ~30whp drop another 4 seconds off my PR. :hellyeah:
  2. Extract knowledge from my fellow track buddies
  3. Visit other tracks in the US
 
Last edited:
70
56
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
Gentleman, I am willing to take all the harsh words you can throw at me for not inspecting my car after every session this past weekend. I will change my inspection tactics at the track from now on.

OK, For The Surprise!! While changing my tires from the track to the street set this past Thursday, I noticed that my left front end link had snapped at the bottom bolt and it was essentially just hanging from the sway bar. :banghead::shhh: Ok, now that that is out into public ears and eyes, I have one theory.

One thing I believe happened was that the end link must have snapped some time between the first session of the weekend and after my last inspection on the Friday before since I practically did not feel any difference in the handling at the track throughout the weekend.

As my update on Tuesday concluded, I attributed the 'beautiful' rotational nature of the car solely to the rear setup change I had done during the summer. However I did not know at the time that I essentially ran the car with no front sway bar all weekend. I did notice some more (maybe like 30% more) body roll on turns but I told myself that it was probably me getting re-accustomed to the car since I had not driven it at the track since January. The rear setup must have attributed to the rotation buy certainly not to 100% of it.

Well, here is my question.

Since by accident I really do like the way the car handles now, with no front sway bar and the stock v6 sway bar in the rear, does my set up find approval under the eyes of my more seasoned drivers?!?!
 
200
204
@Bree789 congrats on what sounds like a really fun day. I'd say whatever you are doing seems to be working -- 4 seconds faster on a 1.50-ish lap is pretty huge, so why not.

Take my comments with a grain of salt as I'm not familiar with the V6 sway bar rates. But your comment that the car "rotates beautifully on every turn, no matter how slow or fast" sounds a little unbalanced, which makes sense with no front bar. Try to get the car so it isn't just plowing everywhere but at the same time you have to provoke rotation in some manner. If you are constantly fighting to keep the rear behind you, you are losing time. Find a skidpad or a nice safe carousel type turn, get a steady state turn going, and then gradually roll into the throttle to see which end breaks loose first. Also, double check your calculations... raising the rear ride height increases, not decreases, instant center and anti-squat on these cars, with the effect of transferring weight to the rear wheels faster on acceleration.

Personally I would fix the front sway bar and see how you like it, and then consider an adjustable front bar. You also should get some rear LCA brackets so you can adjust anti-squat separately from ride height.

Congrats again on a great day and I love your car btw. Good luck.
 
70
56
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
@Bree789 congrats on what sounds like a really fun day. I'd say whatever you are doing seems to be working -- 4 seconds faster on a 1.50-ish lap is pretty huge, so why not.

Take my comments with a grain of salt as I'm not familiar with the V6 sway bar rates. But your comment that the car "rotates beautifully on every turn, no matter how slow or fast" sounds a little unbalanced, which makes sense with no front bar. Try to get the car so it isn't just plowing everywhere but at the same time you have to provoke rotation in some manner. If you are constantly fighting to keep the rear behind you, you are losing time. Find a skidpad or a nice safe carousel type turn, get a steady state turn going, and then gradually roll into the throttle to see which end breaks loose first. Also, double check your calculations... raising the rear ride height increases, not decreases, instant center and anti-squat on these cars, with the effect of transferring weight to the rear wheels faster on acceleration.

Personally I would fix the front sway bar and see how you like it, and then consider an adjustable front bar. You also should get some rear LCA brackets so you can adjust anti-squat separately from ride height.

Congrats again on a great day and I love your car btw. Good luck.
You got it sir!!! It was definitely the best weekend ever! For reference, a stock Porsche 991 911 GT3 does the lap here at MSRH in both the CW and CCW directions in ~1:39; so yes, my ultimate goal by next year of ~1:42 in a v6 mustang is quite the challenge, but try I shall! And if I can get faster than that, even better!!:hellyeah:

Regarding the oversteer nature of the car, the car definitely looses traction on the rear first, but only just. I like your idea of an adjustable front sway bar. Maybe someone will have one on sale this weekend!!! :biggrin:

Also, regarding my rear geometry calculations, I used the following website to get my calculations straight. I saw MadHatter use it in his build thread here at TMO. https://www.baselinesuspensions.com/instant-center_general.php

Below are my calculations done to the best of my abilities back in April of 2022.

1668962131295.png
Current set up 4/26/2022
3rd link set on highest hole(9.625in long).
Lower trailing arms (18.5in long) set at highest hole. 6 ¾ springs + 30mm spacer.
Squat-town here we come!

I have a fully adjustable set up in the rear. Adjustable everything: BMR brackets, ride height, trailing arms, uca, uca mount, and coilovers.

Let me know what you think!
 
200
204
At the risk of getting into stuff you already know, I guess I'm a little confused by your statement: "The car was raised by 30mm in the back to shift some of that weight towards the back," followed by your comments about lowering anti-squat. Two points:

First, my understanding is that all else being equal, raising the rear end will increase not decrease anti-squat. You can see that from the diagram you posted above. If you reduced anti-squat by changing the mounting holes on your adjustable UCA or LCA brackets then yes, that makes sense.

Second, my understanding is that raising or lowering one end of the car will not change the static front/rear weight balance in any material way. You can only adjust the percentage weight carried by the LF/RR vs. RF/LR, thus why it's called "corner balancing." Changing the front or rear roll height does change the roll center height on that end of the car, however, and will affect the front/rear bias in a corner.

I'm no huge suspension expert and you should double check all of the above but I am pretty sure it's correct. Do you see it the same way?
 
70
56
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
At the risk of getting into stuff you already know, I guess I'm a little confused by your statement: "The car was raised by 30mm in the back to shift some of that weight towards the back," followed by your comments about lowering anti-squat. Two points:

First, my understanding is that all else being equal, raising the rear end will increase not decrease anti-squat. You can see that from the diagram you posted above. If you reduced anti-squat by changing the mounting holes on your adjustable UCA or LCA brackets then yes, that makes sense.

Second, my understanding is that raising or lowering one end of the car will not change the static front/rear weight balance in any material way. You can only adjust the percentage weight carried by the LF/RR vs. RF/LR, thus why it's called "corner balancing." Changing the front or rear roll height does change the roll center height on that end of the car, however, and will affect the front/rear bias in a corner.

I'm no huge suspension expert and you should double check all of the above but I am pretty sure it's correct. Do you see it the same way?
I definitely need to learn more about suspension setup. Let me add the way my suspension looked like prior to April 2022, to help me better illustrate my suspension changes.

1668968939037.png1668969001770.png

This is how my suspension looked like on 2/22/22 on the left, vs how it looks like today 11/20/22 (effective since 4/26/22)

Pending that my measurements are accurate up to a degree, since I measured them while laying on my back, the calculator illustrates the changes that happened during this alteration.
However, they are not perfect. The rear and front car weight could be off by +/- 100 lbs and the center of gravity could be off by +/- 0.5 inch or so. All other measurements are accurate to ~1/4". When I raised the rear at the oem spring location by 30mm (I have a divorced rear coliover setup) the angles of the trailing arms and uca became much less extreme.

I don't have the means at the moment to accurately weight the car, nor have I cornered balanced it. This calculator is what I have at my disposal.

My train of thought regarding the weight shifting towards the back goes like this. Upon corner balancing, if I raise the ride height (extend the total length of the coilover) on 1 corner, then it will to take up some weight from the other 3 corners, therefore making that corner heavier. I believe that if you raise the ride height from the rear 2 corners, then the principle should remain the same. they would take some of the weight from the front 2 corners that remained at the same ride height.

The last paragraph leads me to believe that i need a corner balancing system or at least borrow it from somebody...:crying:

As a side note, I really loved the way the car handled at the track this weekend. It was extremely enjoyable. However, there is always something better out there. Suspension stuff is just not coming to me very easily at the moment. I need more time to understand it.

What do you think?
 
200
204
In your diagrams, it appears either you adjusted the angles of the rear LCA and UCA via your adjustable brackets or else your diagrams are a little off. Look at either of the diagrams. If you don't change the mounting holes on your brackets, and raise the rear of the car, the chassis side mounts of both the LCA and the UCA are going to rise upwards. That makes the LCA incline more sharply towards the chassis mount and the UCA becomes more horizontal, both of which will cause the instant center to rise up and increase anti-squat. It doesn't make sense in your second diagram that after you raised the rear, the LCA became more horizontal - unless you adjusted the axle side mounting bracket.

On the corner balancing, I can see your thinking but that isn't correct. It's a common misconception. With the car just sitting on scales, if you raise one corner, it's not correct that only that one corner carries more weight. Rather, that corner and the opposite corner will carry more weight. Think of it like a four-corner table where the legs aren't equal lengths. As an extreme example, if you went crazy on height adjustments you could balance your car on the RF/LR or the LF/RR, but not on the 2 fronts or the 2 rears alone. And certainly not on just one corner. You can't move weight front to back or vice versa, only between corners.
 
70
56
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Houston, TX
SEE!! You got me on the corner balancing stuff. Something I did not know!

Thinking back on which holes my lower trailing arms and uca are at is more of a blur since I last measured them in April. Maybe they are mounted at different holes since my event in January.

What I can say is that the diagram from February and April is definitely measured well. Pending the mentioned small lack of precision. I was just happy that the antisquat was below 100% this time around...lol

Thanks for chipping in on your recommendations. It is good to be challenged when you think you are right!

For the moment I will try to attend another HPDE event at the same track and will report back on my findings. I will be monitoring tire temps, pressures and new rubber (Toyo RR!!...the slow slick...:biggrin:) and will se how it all goes!

I will keep monitoring suspension better from now on and try to not break any more end links!

My goal is 1:46s, but who knows!
 

TMO Supporting Vendors

Latest posts

Buy TMO Apparel

Buy TMO Apparel
Top