Boss 302S v Boss 302R Lap Times

[cholmes1]

I have been doing some deep tech dives on the Boss 302S and Boss 302R and am curious if anyone has comparable lap times (same track, etc.)? I recall in 2014 Dean Martin ran a Boss 302S and Jack Roush Jr. ran a Boss 302R in the Pirelli World Challenge series. The 302S earned more points but that was likely due to a variety of reasons (driver, setup, etc.). I am also uncertain how many alterations were made/required in Jack Jrs shift from the Continental Sports Car Challenge in 2013 to the Pirelli World Challenge in 2014. The setup requirements look very similar for the two series but weekly adjustments are not posted, meaning if a detune or extra ballast was required in one series versus the other.

Sadly, I am only able to find one event (2014 Road America) with the pair above and nothing regarding cross series. In the Road America race the 302S ran 2m20s79 with the 302R running 2m20s18. Nothing really to be drawn from a single event.

I would assume, all things being equal, the 302R would be the faster given the Rouch Yates engine and the 302R gearbox but I also know the 302S had a bit more freedom/testing early on (2011) which may have allowed it to run faster laps.

Asking purely for my own knowledge. These are two amazing cars and I am always interested to learn more...

 

[ajaquilante]

Laptimes would vary based what tires and weights/restrictions the cars were running too. The only way to answer an "as delivered" speed would be to find two untouched cars and run them on the same tire.

The 302S wasn't a "spec'ed" car in PWC. The PWC car was a 302R"+". To compare the 2 in PWC is not worth the time since a 302S needed a lot done to it. Actually starting with a true 302S chassis was an advantage because of the weight taken out of it that wasn't allowed in the GA/IMSA 302R chassis. By the end of 2015 a 302S in PWC needed a dry-sumped RYR motor, larger fuel cell than a standard IMSA cell, cambered rear axle, open shocks, larger splitter, different wing location, 302R transmission, plus some other open things that could be changed.

 

[cholmes1]

Hi AJ,

Given your incredible experience in racing the 302R, your feedback is greatly appreciated. So given your insights, it appears that the Paul Brown 302S in the 2011 PWC was likely the strongest competitor given its starting base (his trifecta would support this) paired with additions and innovations that came throughout the season. Similarly, your Phoenix Boss 302R was likely the most refined and quickest given that it was the most successful Boss 302R in the last year of the chassis' competition.

As you rightly noted, there really would not have been a 302S in international competition between 2013-2015 as all would have had to have been significantly modified into 302Rs to meet series requirements and remain competitive.

Does the above seem accurate?

That said, I am not certain what you mean when you stated, "The 302S wasn't a "spec'ed" car in PWC. The PWC car was a 302R"+"." Are you speaking to all years of the PWC or the years that followed 2011?

 

[ajaquilante]

Hi AJ,

Given your incredible experience in racing the 302R, your feedback is greatly appreciated. So given your insights, it appears that the Paul Brown 302S in the 2011 PWC was likely the strongest competitor given its starting base (his trifecta would support this) paired with additions and innovations that came throughout the season. Similarly, your Phoenix Boss 302R was likely the most refined and quickest given that it was the most successful Boss 302R in the last year of the chassis' competition.

As you rightly noted, there really would not have been a 302S in international competition between 2013-2015 as all would have had to have been significantly modified into 302Rs to meet series requirements and remain competitive.

Does the above seem accurate?

That said, I am not certain what you mean when you stated, "The 302S wasn't a "spec'ed" car in PWC. The PWC car was a 302R"+"." Are you speaking to all years of the PWC or the years that followed 2011?

The class was still fairly new in 2011 and running with GT and TC all in one race I think, so it was a quick easy way to add car count for PWC. I would guess that in 2011 most cars were still pretty close to as delivered 302s, and then as the years went on more parts/changes were allowed. Rules were creeping on all fronts over the years not just in the Mustang world.

I agree about the 13-15 Boss302S comment. I think sometime in 2013 is when the dry-sumped RYR engines started, as I know in GA they tried to get it approved due to concern about running at COTA, but GA shot it down. When we switched to PWC for 15, all our GA/IMSA motors went back to be dry-sumped. Also people were realizing the difference between the 302S transmission and the 302R trans.

I can't speak to the early years, just the later years. In PWC you could either start with a 302s, or 302r, or build your own up. It didn't need to start life as a 302s. For example in GA/IMSA it had to be a 302R chassis, built a certain way without the weight reduction that was done to the 302S.

 

[302 Hi Pro]

Birth of the Boss 302S.

https://www.speednik.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2015/07/2015-07-08_19-17-04.jpg

 

[GB899]

I pit crewed for Paul Brown in his smurf killer American Sedan pre Boss era.. a truly great driver and friend.. I miss him... but the movie references how they made their Boss 302S before Ford did... will be having dinner with his old A.Sedan Co-driver this Saturday night... the team owner may be there also... Paul will definitely be part of the Mustang conversation... along with Saleen... the early foxbody Saleen racecars were built here in town at Paul's fathers shop.. the next generation Saleen widebody racecars were built in Paul's shop HP Motorsports...

 

[cholmes1]

I pit crewed for Paul Brown in his smurf killer American Sedan pre Boss era.. a truly great driver and friend.. I miss him... but the movie references how they made their Boss 302S before Ford did... will be having dinner with his old A.Sedan Co-driver this Saturday night... the team owner may be there also... Paul will definitely be part of the Mustang conversation... along with Saleen... the early foxbody Saleen racecars were built here in town at Paul's fathers shop.. the next generation Saleen widebody racecars were built in Paul's shop HP Motorsports...

This is the second time I have heard a reference of a video/documentary/movie existing on the origins of the Boss 302S with Paul Brown. Do you have a name or any information where this video can be found?

 

[GB899]

This is the second time I have heard a reference of a video/documentary/movie existing on the origins of the Boss 302S with Paul Brown. Do you have a name or any information where this video can be found?

sorry.. sadly I have not been able to find a copy... the
B 5141872 Birth of a Boss S Mustang is the movie poster and I would love a copy as well.. I have seen the movie at a Paul Brown memorial... and if I EVER find a source I will share the information on the forum...

 

[GB899]

Check out “Tribute to Paul Brown” from Barber Driving Experience on Vimeo.

The video is available for your viewing pleasure at

If you like this video, make sure you share it, too!

Vimeo is filled with lots of amazing videos. See more at https://vimeo.com.

 

[GB899]

Check out “Tiger Racing Teaser- B5141872” from Barber Driving Experience on
Vimeo.

The video is available for your viewing pleasure at

If you like this video, make sure you share it, too!

Vimeo is filled with lots of amazing videos. See more at https://vimeo.com.

 

[GB899]

the above snips are about all I have ever been able to find...

 

[Jimmy Pribble]

Circuit of the Americas (COTA):
302R - 2:22.504 - Billy Johnson in #158 Multimatic for 2014 Grand-Am GS (good enough for pole position and 3rd place)
302S - 2:16.641 - Nate Stacy - #14 Roush for 2016 PWC GTS qualifying

Just data points. Still, I always assumed 302S would be faster, because of massive aero advantage and a 305 section tire vs. a 275 for the 302R.

 

[cholmes1]

I think this is the closest we may get to the documentary unless someone has a physical copy they are willing to share. This video shows the build process and then cuts right as Paul and the team are starting the 2011 PWC series. I have contacted Barber Driving Experience by all means listed and they no longer appear to be in business

Many thanks for all of the feedback. I do agree that the 302S has a sizeable aero advantage and with wider tire fitment certainly would have the potential for quick times. It would have been interesting to see what the Rouch Yates motor with 302S aero and wider tires would have done...

 

[GB899]

CHolmes1 thanks for the new video..