BOSS DYNOED with Black Key and Red Key, Red Key SPARK-KNOCKING BAD

[rpm3dinc]

Well after the first Dyno test with the Black Key, I reset the PCM (where you basically set everything back to "Factory" (The keys learn your driving habits and dumbs everything down after awhile if you drive in heavy traffic). The second Dyno run, we only used the Red Key. I drove to the show on the Black Key so the Red Key would be "Factory" with no other "Driving" on it before the Dyno... Not sure if it was the reset or the TracKey, but from the first Dyno to the second it picked up almost 35-40HP.

It was probably a little bit of both the reset and the TracKey...

 

[rpm3dinc]

Took to the dealer today, at first they were going to change the plugs, but had to order them, in the meantime they called Ford Racing Tech, and talked to them about reflashing the TracKey and Ford Racing Tech said "it's supposed to do that with the TracKey, don't touch it, don't change plugs or anything, it's behaving like its suppose to with the TracKey program"...

Well.. So know I don't know what to think or do...

Sure in the TracKey Documentation it says "Slight pinging will occur at low RPM's... But last I checked 5,000 - 7,400 was not "Low RPM's".

I am going to run a few tanks of gas through it, and then have it Dyno Tested again to make sure it wasn't the Gas. Then I will have Ford document everything at the dealership so that if something does go wrong they can't say "Well did you try this, or this, or you never said it was at High RPM's"...

Just trying to cover all my bases... cause I don't have $13K or more with labor to replace the engine... and while some Pinging might be acceptable, its only a matter time before the engine says "I can't take it anymore"... Granted I don't run my car "Balls Out", I don't track it, or race it... but at the same time I don't want to be doing some "Spirited Driving" and then "KABOOM"...

 

[rpm3dinc]

BTW, for those that wanted to see the the if the car popped smoke, on the first run in the video I posted you can see it at the end of the first run, but I think that is normal???

 

[PeteInCT]

Whats this PCM relearn? And did it allow you to pickup the extra power or was that with the red key?

1) PCM relearn resets the PCM back to stock settings and make it 'forget' your driving habits (which have an influence on the program).

2) The RED key does not increase peak power or torque. Anyone who says it does is incorrect. It may change the shape of the power band which means at any given RPM you may get more power/torque than with the black key which means your average power may be impacted - however I have yet to see any valid before/after dyno's that prove this...

-Pete

 

[PeteInCT]

BTW, for those that wanted to see the the if the car popped smoke, on the first run in the video I posted you can see it at the end of the first run, but I think that is normal???

(I am assuming you have a stock tune - I havn't read this whole thread): If Ford is sayng that the car should ping at ANY RPM with either key I'd fight that all day long. That's BS. The car has variable timing and ping sensors. I should not ping or knock as long as you are using appropriate octane fuel. If it is, you have a problem...

-Pete

 

[rpm3dinc]

They are saying Pinging with the TracKey is normal, in their documentation it says at Low RPM, but mine is happening at 5,000-5,500 RPM... The Dyno said the spark-knock sensor wasn't working which was allowing the pinging... But Ford claims that is "Normal" for the TracKey.

 

[PeteInCT]

They are saying Pinging with the TracKey is normal, in their documentation it says at Low RPM, but mine is happening at 5,000-5,500 RPM... The Dyno said the spark-knock sensor wasn't working which was allowing the pinging... But Ford claims that is "Normal" for the TracKey.

I don't think the dyno would know if the knock sensor was working or not unless the PCM threw a code that indicated so, I believe it is making that assumption because the the car is pinging... That said, pinging at high RPM will damage your engine. I run Trackey all the time (I actually never use the black key), use Sunoco or Gulf 93 octane and have never heard the engine ping once over the entire RPM range.

Are you getting any codes thrown by the PCM at all ? WHat gas are you using?

-Pete

 

[rpm3dinc]

Nothing is on the center display and no CEL warnings.
Using 93oct all the time. The Dyno software was showing the ping at 5,000 RPM and the Ford tech at the dealership confirmed by driving the car 3 days later.

 

[PeteInCT]

Nothing is on the center display and no CEL warnings.
Using 93oct all the time. The Dyno software was showing the ping at 5,000 RPM and the Ford tech at the dealership confirmed by driving the car 3 days later.

My suggestion would be to throw an OBD reader on it and see if there are any stored codes. They can still exist even if the CEL isn't going on. If you see any codes, especially one relatd to knock sensors or misfires, you may have reason to challenge them. I also would call Ford Racing and see what they think about pinging at high RPM's.

-Pete

 

[Justin]

I have to wonder if this guy might just be drumming up some sales by saying it's knocking and saying he can fix it with tuning. Without data logging its hard say what's going on in your engine.

 

[Grant 302]

Do you have an oil separator on the passenger side PCV?

 

[nota4re]

This is not true. Yes the factory intake is considered a cold air intake. If you go with a AIRAID CAI and leave the insert in making it to the same diameter as the factory size then yes if wont make much over stock 5 at best. Remove it and make it bigger and you allow the car to pull in more air easier. So it is worth power. Under your theory a throttle body wouldnt be worth it.

Justin, hijacking this thread is not the place but you and I will disagree on aftermarket CAI's for the Boss engine. If you follow your "logic" that bigger is better, it is fundamentally flawed. If we take the AIRAID and assume it is OEM, and then XYZ company comes out with something a little larger to "pull in more air easier", then you would say it is worth power. Then, if we take this as stock and ABC company comes along.... At some point size of intake is NOT a constraint on making HP and I submit to you that the above experimentation - both in simulation in the design phase with CFD models and later with physical testing, is what Ford engineering does very well. You have to trust that the Ford engineers do not naively leave easy HP on the table. Obviously, they have to live in a world of trade-offs but constraining the size of the intake to the point where it impacts performance just doesn't happen.

 

[steveespo]

Justin, hijacking this thread is not the place but you and I will disagree on aftermarket CAI's for the Boss engine. If you follow your "logic" that bigger is better, it is fundamentally flawed. If we take the AIRAID and assume it is OEM, and then XYZ company comes out with something a little larger to "pull in more air easier", then you would say it is worth power. Then, if we take this as stock and ABC company comes along.... At some point size of intake is NOT a constraint on making HP and I submit to you that the above experimentation - both in simulation in the design phase with CFD models and later with physical testing, is what Ford engineering does very well. You have to trust that the Ford engineers do not naively leave easy HP on the table. Obviously, they have to live in a world of trade-offs but constraining the size of the intake to the point where it impacts performance just doesn't happen.

I will jump in here just to say that Ford Racing is marketing the CJ intake, CAI and Throttle bodies that have open elements and much larger flow paths than both the stock Boss or GT setups. They are also claiming a 25 HP increase with no torque loss (torque gain over Boss). There is room on the intake side of the Coyote/Boss heads for increased intake flow, just as long tube headers increase performance on the exhaust side. The design of the Coyote/Boss heads in conjunction with TiVCT is that good. Ford Engineer left HP available for many reasons, emissions, fuel economy, cold start/drive ability, cost, packaging and the ability to market parts as a performance upgrade to name a few. I was told face to face by a very respected Ford Racing engineer that the CJ setup is the real deal and was worth the wait.

To not totally high jack the thread, rpm needs to make Ford get to the bottom of the pinging, low RPM spark knock at tip in at 1800 to 2200 is not proffered but not too damaging, detonation at 5000+ RPM will lead to disaster under load very quickly, broken rings/lands, hole in piston top or even rod bearing damage is the possible result. Get some octane boost, fill up with gas from a major brand station and check it again with your Ford tech. Until proven resolved, don't use the track key programming.
Best of luck
Steve

 

[rpm3dinc]

I'm not very mechanically inclined, but I do know on my TracKey packet it says 2012 BOSS TracKey programming. Would that make any difference? From the little knowledge I have the engines are the same in the 13 and 12 BOSS correct?

I talked with my Ford Dealer and they said run a tank or 2 through it from BP, and have it Dyno tested again, see if it still spark-knockes and if it does they will have some "ammo" to per sure it further.

 

[PeteInCT]

For the purposes of your issue the engines are the same. There are some differences in sensors and wiring but they should not relate to your issue. What brand of gas are you using now, and specifically what octane?

Pete

 

[dabossinnne]

I'm not very mechanically inclined, but I do know on my TracKey packet it says 2012 BOSS TracKey programming. Would that make any difference? From the little knowledge I have the engines are the same in the 13 and 12 BOSS correct?

I talked with my Ford Dealer and they said run a tank or 2 through it from BP, and have it Dyno tested again, see if it still spark-knockes and if it does they will have some "ammo" to per sure it further.

The "current" version of TK is v2.0 which, IIRC, was released in early 2012 and superseded TK v1.0. Maybe it's possible that your car was flashed with TK v1.0, and that could be part of the problem? Might be worth checking out anyway.

 

[rpm3dinc]

I have always used 93 octane, this past tank I bought at a local pilot gas station, it's almost gone though, and next tank will be 93 at a BP station

 

[steveespo]

I have always used 93 octane, this past tank I bought at a local pilot gas station, it's almost gone though, and next tank will be 93 at a BP station

Good start, and this most likely was the issue, the 93 tank may have had 87 in it and the knock sensors could not pull enough spark out to prevent detonation with TK because it allows more knock than the Black Key program will.
Like Pete stated, he has run Track Key all the time and really uses his car for track only. If there was an inherent problem with the program he would have blown up a long time ago.
Steve

 

[rpm3dinc]

The "current" version of TK is v2.0 which, IIRC, was released in early 2012 and superseded TK v1.0. Maybe it's possible that your car was flashed with TK v1.0, and that could be part of the problem? Might be worth checking out anyway.

My packet says V2.0 and was released on June 7th 2012. So I would assume that is the correct version...

 

[Justin]

Justin, hijacking this thread is not the place but you and I will disagree on aftermarket CAI's for the Boss engine. If you follow your "logic" that bigger is better, it is fundamentally flawed. If we take the AIRAID and assume it is OEM, and then XYZ company comes out with something a little larger to "pull in more air easier", then you would say it is worth power. Then, if we take this as stock and ABC company comes along.... At some point size of intake is NOT a constraint on making HP and I submit to you that the above experimentation - both in simulation in the design phase with CFD models and later with physical testing, is what Ford engineering does very well. You have to trust that the Ford engineers do not naively leave easy HP on the table. Obviously, they have to live in a world of trade-offs but constraining the size of the intake to the point where it impacts performance just doesn't happen.

I didn't start the hi jack you did with your cai he wasn't asking for that to begin with. And Steve put it better then me that they do in fact leave hp on the table. They had a hp goal it was met and money was saved by using what was available.

Once I find a dyno that will give me a decent price on pulls I will prove you wrong. I have the tune files and parts to do such a test. Just need a dyno.