BOSS DYNOED with Black Key and Red Key, Red Key SPARK-KNOCKING BAD

[65sohc]

I didn't start the hi jack you did with your cai he wasn't asking for that to begin with. And Steve put it better then me that they do in fact leave hp on the table. They had a hp goal it was met and money was saved by using what was available.

Once I find a dyno that will give me a decent price on pulls I will prove you wrong. I have the tune files and parts to do such a test. Just need a dyno.

FYI my car gained 7 hp with AED tune and stock intake. Steeda Boss intake added 13 more. This is on 91 octane. I imagine Shaun could have gotten substantially more with better fuel but he tuned it for what we Californians are forced to live with. The factory CAI flows 50 cfm less than the stock 4.6 intake.

 

[Justin]

Thank you


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[65sohc]

I also compared intake restriction using a water column manometer. At peak torque there is a negative pressure of 23 inches of water with the stock intake and 6 with the Steeda. 23 inches is a lot of restriction. Converting to psi the difference between the two systems equals 0.6 psi, essentally about a half pound of boost.

 

[Phantom]

Any updates on this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[rpm3dinc]

I am still running some BP Gas through it, weather here hasn't helped, but hopeful to get at least 2 tanks of BP 93 Oct through it and then re-dyno to see if it was Bad Gas before I go back to Ford with the results... 1 tank half way through... then I will put one more through it and on the 3rd tank I will Dyno it again... (this time I won't reset the Kams, or anything, just throw it up on the dyno with the Red Key and see what happens... because we know its making 400HP, so now we are just figuring out the Spark-Knock... Hopefully it was just bad gas, because I am reading that Ford isn't making the BOSS 302 Motor anymore, and they are no-where to be found on the market either...

If its still knocking, I am also going to have the Ford Racing Dealership I am going to drop the oil to check for metal or anything in the oil... if its knocking at that high of RPM, its only a matter of time before something shows up in the oil... hopefully that's not the case, cause then a new motor or Motor-Rebuild would be in order and that devalues the car greatly...

Of course some say (you don't drive it that hard, so don't worry about it)... That's not the point... these motors are meant to be beaten to death on the track no less, and if hitting 5K RPM on the street is hurting it, then I am not getting my money's worth... The motor should hit 7,500 Rpm with little to no issues, we are 2K shy of that currently...

This didn't happen on the Black Key, only on the Red Key and after a KAM/PCM reset... (same tank of gas)... so hopefully its the gas...

I will update this as soon as I have the 3rd tank of BP 93 Oct. in and we have it back on the Dyno...

 

[65sohc]

Why are going to spend money on a dyno just to see if it's knocking? Why not just drive it and listen?

 

[rpm3dinc]

The main reason to get it Dyno is they can see it knocking or about to knock on the readouts without "Beating the engine" more than it needs to be... Plus its in a controlled environment, and it something does "Let Go" then its not going anywhere, where as on the road, if something gives, then it could mean BAD NEWS...

I don't really know what to listen for, and even if I did, my exhaust is so loud I doubt I would hear it anyways...

Plus, around here there is not many 'Straight Roads with little to no traffic' to get it up to that RPM long enough to hear it really...
Sure I could drop it into 5th and punch it and see what happens, but going slow enough in a high gear and then punching it is going to produce some knocking anyways just because the engine is struggling at that point... (like trying to go up a hill at 20MPH in 6th gear).. LOL

We have some nice days coming up around here, so I hope to get at least most of the current tank of "BP Gas" gone and fill up again, then I only have 1 more tank to go to make sure most if not all the "Bad Gas" if that is what was causing the Spark-Knock.

The Dyno Guy did say the car seemed to ignore the knock-sensors. Like most Sports Cars, and cars in general, they have a sensor that will basically shut the the car down if a Knock develops... But I think the TracKey disables this, not completely sure, be he said the Knock-Sensor should have kicked it and it wasn't... Maybe our cars don't have them? Or maybe the TracKey Disables them? Either way, something is not right at the Power Point of 5,000-5,500 RPM.

I can speculate all day long, but in the end I leave it to the Dyno Guy that I trust completely, and Ford Racing... Hopefully between the 2 of them we can figure it out, especially since Spark-Knocking is simply a timing adjustment for the most part... and can easily be fixed with a Tune (Though I really don't want to go that route if I don't have to).

 

[hkerekes]

Dont take this the wrong way.. I dont believe you and your tuner have any idea what is going on.

It should knock more on the street because of the higher load on the motor. If it is knocking your tuner wont need a 5th gear 7500 rpm test to tell.

 

[Justin]

BUY THIS AND PUT IN TANK IT WILL RULE OUT THE GAS!!!!!!

I buy it by the case
http://www.amazon.com/Torco-Accelerator-32oz-Best-Additive/dp/B004ZO3VN0


If it knocks with this take it to the dealer!!!

you might be confusing the sound with the AC belt TSB that is out there. Or the stight knock that forged pistons tend to make at low rpm when not fully warmed up.

 

[rpm3dinc]

I admit I don't have the experience or knowledge in issues such as this, but the knocking was also confirmed at the RPM range by a Ford Racing dealer tech that is specifically trained to work on BOSS and Shelby mustangs. He took the car out and drove it and came to the same conclusion.

Due to my lack of knowledge, I have to rely on these 2 to diagnose what is happening and to help remedy the problem.

If anyone has suggestions I am certainly open to them if we find that after running different a brand of fuel doesn't resolve the issue.

 

[rpm3dinc]

Thanks Justin, I do plan on adding this to the next full tank

 

[Boostd4]

Reminds me of the time I had with my Evo 10. Trying to track down knock is a PITA. We did everything from replacing spark plugs, sensors, running many tanks of 100 octane, etc. to no avail. When we pulled the head off there were no physical signs of any detonation...so we had a phantom knock situation with that car.

I'm definitely curious to find out how much knock Ford feels is acceptable with this motor.

 

[Justin]

I admit I don't have the experience or knowledge in issues such as this, but the knocking was also confirmed at the RPM range by a Ford Racing dealer tech that is specifically trained to work on BOSS and Shelby mustangs. He took the car out and drove it and came to the same conclusion.

Due to my lack of knowledge, I have to rely on these 2 to diagnose what is happening and to help remedy the problem.

If anyone has suggestions I am certainly open to them if we find that after running different a brand of fuel doesn't resolve the issue.

read above post................

 

[65sohc]

I would let the dealer sort this out. I'm reading from the Installation Instructions for dealer technician v2.2: "if customer complains about excessive ping.......if pinging persists perform steps 1 through 10, then steps 17 through 19......Select "Change octane adjust"......then complete steps 23 through 31...." Obviously I left out the details but the point is Ford has an established protocol for this situation

 

[Justin]

I would let the dealer sort this out. I'm reading from the Installation Instructions for dealer technician v2.2: "if customer complains about excessive ping.......if pinging persists perform steps 1 through 10, then steps 17 through 19......Select "Change octane adjust"......then complete steps 23 through 31...." Obviously I left out the details but the point is Ford has an established protocol for this situation

+1

 

[rpm3dinc]

Hopefully next week I can get the car down to the Dyno... I am now on the second tank of BP 93 Octane since I had the Spark-Knock on the dyno... I have also added Lucas Oil's engine and Fuel additives, (one goes in the Oil filler, the other in the gas tank). So now everything has been taken out of the equation as far as "Bad Fuel". I didn't add Octane Boost, because I only use 93 Octane, so "Increasing the octane" while it might help on the dyno with the spark-knock, won't be accurate as to what I drive in the tank... Thus I want to do all testing on Straight up 93 Oct, so we have a baseline and constant while we figure this out...

I did hear through the grapevine that someone said they attending a "Dyno-Tuners Conference" and that 90% of the Dyno guys said their experience with the BOSS 302 and the Red Key was it spark-knocked at 5,000 to 5,500. This is due to the TracKey disabling the Knock Sensor, thus, the Spark-Knock will occur with no "Electronic interference"... Not sure how accurate that is, but it seems to make sense that one of the "Parameters" that gets changed is turning off some sensors that might "throw CEL's, or other warnings" in Track-Mode...

Either way, I am going to have it dyno'd on the Red Key again, (Since no issues occurred with the Black Key, but it was also about 45HP slower). So we will see soon... I will be sure to report back my findings and any other information I learn...

 

[65sohc]

I would venture to say that it is inconceivable that Ford would disable the knock sensors. Their sole purpose is to protect the engine. That would make about as much sense as disabling the rev limiter.

 

[rpm3dinc]

I don't disagree just relaying what I heard. It would be interesting to see if Ford has a diag. Tool to check to see if the knock sensor is on with the black key and off with the TracKey though. Not sure if that is possible to check with diags.

 

[rpm3dinc]

So I just got off the phone with my Dyno Guy, he attended a Tuner's Conference in Dec. and talked to many tuners about the BOSS and Dyno results... There was also a Ford Rep. there, and it was found that the Knock Sensor is in fact disabled and or turned down with the TracKey. This explains why no knock was seen in the data or heard while on dyno with the Black Key, but was seen and heard with the Red Key. Obviously Ford isn't allowing tuners to modify or adjust the TracKey file... So the only way to really get rid of it is to Custom Tune the car... Which should make more power and allow for adjustments, however the "Lopey Idle" may not be possible without really testing the timing at idle and seeing what works best...

They also suggested running Torco Fuel Additive as several of you have suggested, but even then, it won't really do much if the motor is knocking with the TracKey, only way to truly fix it is a tune... it may be as simple as adjusting the timing half a point to 1 point to fix the issue...

So the saga continues... Ford is not going to change anything on the TracKey tune, and each engine though the same internally might have difference tolerances, even slight ones can produce a knock in some BOSS cars and not in others...

 

[boro92]

^Wait, what?!
The knock sensors are disabled with the track key? This is getting insane.
I know they get really aggressive with the timing when on the track key, but without a knock sensor and/or tuning for each individual car, how will you ever get it to stop pinging?