Brake Upgrade

[gww52]

Is the RS29 available in the 13 GT500 front pad size?I'm trying to decide whether to do the full GT500 setup or just do the rear upgrade.
Thanks

 

[boro92]

Can anyone comment on Pagid RS29 vs Carbotech RS2?
I'm pad shopping for next season, and it's come down to these 2 for my front pad use.
My car like many of you, is primarily a toy. Weekend joy car and track day weapon. I compete at time attacks but would like to use the same pad on the street as I would on the track.

How is longevity like between the two? and noise (though that is of lesser importance than longevity)?

 

[2012YellowBoss]

Pete,

Found a set of lightly used (10 track days) Brembo Pro Series Race calipers, do you know what pad shape these are? And what compounds can you get?

Doug

Doug, here is some info I sent to another member using the setup, if the caliper are (leading edge)

XA2.E7.03 and
XA2.E7.04

The pads are a 7700 PFC type for Alcon Brembo Outlaw
examples are:

7700.01.25.34 - 44
7700.06.25.44
7700.08.25.44

Most other pad makers will reference the PFC 7700 shape

The rotors I use are (Brembos)

09A02613 Left 355 Diameter 32mm, 10 X 233mm, 48 Vanes Air Gap 17 Type 5
09A02623 Right 355 Diameter 32mm, 10 X 233mm, 48 Vanes Air Gap 17 Type 5

Bedded numbers (more expensive)
609A02613/23

There is also omidirectional like the new DBA's but don't stop better for the cost

72 vane BRE09.9306.11
09930611 Left 355mm 32mm, 10 X 233mm, 72 Vanes, Standard Annulus Type III
09930621 Right 355mm 32mm, 10 X 233mm, 72 Vanes Standard Annulus Type III

Hats are
BRE-16B77001 MUSTANG FR500C Front Bell w/09A02613/23 Old P.N, 80.1238

and also Wide annulus which has the thicker rotor face but you need different backing plates and hats
09.9404.12 wide Left
09.9404.22 Right

 

[PeteInCT]

cool. I'll look these up tonight get back to you.

 

[PeteInCT]

Pete,

Found a set of lightly used (10 track days) Brembo Pro Series Race calipers, do you know what pad shape these are? And what compounds can you get?

Doug

Boss_302: Great news, Pagid has a number of pad compounds available for these calipers. Email me at [email protected] and we can work on what works best for you.

-Pete

 

[gww52]

I have a question for Steve and those running the 6 piston fronts.Would you do it again or stick with the 4 piston setup and why? How is the ride quality? I will be driving to the track too.
Thanks, Guy

 

[VoodooBoss]

I have a question for Steve and those running the 6 piston fronts.Would you do it again or stick with the 4 piston setup and why? How is the ride quality? I will be driving to the track too.
Thanks, Guy

The larger calipers and rotors aren't going to affect the ride.

I'm no expert on this but I did spend a lot of time talking to both Brembo and Stoptech reps at SEMA earlier this week. Other than product specific questions they were both very consistent in their message about larger rotors and calipers. In general there is no improvement in stopping distances by using a larger rotor or more pistons in the caliper if you're talking the same quality. Your braking is limited by your tires and their contact with the road. Our stock brakes are quite capable of stopping our cars very effectively....at least once. Both reps focused on braking consistency whether it's your first lap or 100th. And that's where the larger rotors and forged calipers with larger pads come in. All of their conversation focused on heat dissipation. The larger rotors dissipate heat better than smaller rotors as do larger pads that are used in six piston calipers. Also our calipers are cast while race or higher quality street calipers are forged. Forged aluminum dissipates heat better than cast. Two piece rotors dissipate heat better than a one piece. Also by using larger pads in six piston calipers and larger rotors your brakes should last longer. So while there might be increased initial costs with this setup you will gain some of this back by not having to change pads or rotors as often. My comments aren't meant to be definitive but I'm conveying my interpretation of what they told me. There are lots of variables to this of course.

Regarding the GT500 six piston calipers compared to ours the rep, who seemed to know our street cars well but not what is on the 302 S/R cars, unequivocally stated the GT500 is a better caliper and should be a nice upgrade for our cars. So for the price this would be a nice upgrade. They are still not at the caliber of the race calipers though. I hope that helps.

BTW when I asked the Stoptech rep about their brake fluid and who makes it he commented that there are only two manufacturers of brake fluid in the US so I had a 50/50 chance of getting it correct.

Edit:

I found this on Stoptech's website

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/brake-system-and-upgrade-selection

 

[Mad Hatter]

Hmm, for me this puts the GT500 front discs back on the table as a future upgrade. Thanks for the heads up!!

 

[PeteInCT]

my bottom line on this is that if you have never experienced any brake fade on the track during HPDE event then the only thing a6 piston caliper will gain you is longer pad life. That said if you're using the right pads and you have break cooling ducks you should not be seeing any brake fade whatsoever. Personally I'm putting more money into my suspension system and feel the brakes are more than adequate.

 

[steveespo]

I have a question for Steve and those running the 6 piston fronts.Would you do it again or stick with the 4 piston setup and why? How is the ride quality? I will be driving to the track too.
Thanks, Guy

Absolutely. There is a difference in braking power, more initial torque feel, no fade at all running super aggressive pads from Carbotech, first XP 20 now XP 24. Carbotech made the correct full size pad shape and it is much larger, better wear and heat dissipation. I faded the 4 pot brakes only twice, once at VIR and once at Watkins Glen but I think fluid played a part there, I now run strictly Castrol SRF. The other option would be the 15" 6 pot forged brembos from the Grand Am GS cars, problem is the cost is high, but you can run much thicker pads for more life and fade resistance. I put my front calipers, rotors and hoses together for $975 by purchasing the service parts before Ford Racing had the kit. I also run the 13.75" rear brakes too.
Steve

 

[gww52]

Thanks Steve,that is the kind of feedback I need.
Thanks

 

[PeteInCT]

Absolutely. There is a difference in braking power, more initial torque feel, no fade at all running super aggressive pads from Carbotech, first XP 20 now XP 24. Carbotech made the correct full size pad shape and it is much larger, better wear and heat dissipation. I faded the 4 pot brakes only twice, once at VIR and once at Watkins Glen but I think fluid played a part there, I now run strictly Castrol SRF. The other option would be the 15" 6 pot forged brembos from the Grand Am GS cars, problem is the cost is high, but you can run much thicker pads for more life and fade resistance. I put my front calipers, rotors and hoses together for $975 by purchasing the service parts before Ford Racing had the kit. I also run the 13.75" rear brakes too.
Steve

You felt a difference in braking power and early bite with the same pad compound? This is not a common experience. You gained pad surface but lost PSI for pad against rotor. That is why this is an uncommon experience. Did sonething else change besides just the calipers?

 

[Mad Hatter]

If you changed to the GT500 6 pots would you not increase the psi? Apart from the increased torque because of the bigger disc?? Or would you have to install the GT500 brake booster as well?

I guess this would be a interesting physics problem, what is the wheel torque of a 19 in wheel with 26.6in diameter tire and 15in discs compared too..... 18 in wheel with 25.6 in diameter tire and 14 in discs. Then you have to look at the cooling gained by the larger disc.... and heck,, then the weight... Maybe better off just asking some one ;D...

 

[PeteInCT]

the pressure in the brake lines remains consistentunless you also update the brake booster.because of this the p_s_i a larger pad drops. the same amount of forces be in applied over a larger surface area.

 

[steveespo]

Pete is correct, equal line pressure equates to less force per piston, but applied over a much larger surface area. I do have the production GT 500 master cylinder and booster, don't have any data indicating that these parts increase pressure or boost, I did the swap as preventative maintenance after 2 seasons tracking with the OEM parts.

The force applied with the larger diameter rotor and pads is real and results in a wider pedal range of motion to get to the old "maximum" and new "maximum". To me it means the pedal is less sensitive at the end of travel, in other words the sweet spot is bigger and easier to modulate without hitting ABS. Tires are the limiting factor, but as many of us run R comps or race slicks the limits are potentially very high. On Pilot Super Sports I am seeing braking rates of 1.20g with a peak of 1.27g which is pretty good. On race tires with a good driver : I'm sure it would be much higher (we shall see in '14).

The brakes also give me a lot of confidence, I did have 2 fade events with the stock Brembo setup, that is probably a combination of many factors such as pad compound, fluid, pad size and disc size but the fact is I don't have even a hint of diminished braking with the current setup. I ran a whole session against our TT instructor in his Lotus Elise and was absolutely killing him under braking into turn 1 and turn 10 at Summit Point, and I had plenty in reserve. I am very pleased with this setup on a cost/benefit scale and would recommend them to other Mustang track junkies. Steve Pufferfish sent me the rim template for the Team Dynamics 18"x10" wheels and the will clear easily by 1/4" around the calipers. Soon as I save up, I will be ordering 4 to use as fronts. Also Revan Racing has stainless brake hoses that are shaped to fit theses calipers, wil be getting a set of those too.

Steve

 

[Mad Hatter]

Nice description. I am happy so far with my Pagid pads and Castrol SRF but my current tracks are only 1.6km!! This coming year we have two new tracks opening with over 4km lengths. My current top speed is 185kmh, on the new tracks it will be much higher. Was thinking a big brake upgrade might come in handy braking at the end of long straight away. You guys are spoiled with your nice big tracks!!