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Building a 2020 10 spd. Ecoboost for racing. Inputs?

Fair

Go Big or Go Home
Supporting Vendor
222
343
Plano, TX
just thought I'd throw this out there, it is possible to have too much downforce...
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hehe... Just like with tires, power, and lightness: The more aero the better. On slower tracks you can always trim out the wing to a low AOA.

DSC_7570-L.jpg
1600106720068.gif


I am always looking at the rules and running the largest chord / widest wing / mounted as high as allowed. Them trim it out to match the max allowed front aero and/or the particular track.

Can't wait to see the final weight of this one. Lightweight S550s are possible. :)
1600106720087.gif
 

ChuckBilodeau

TMO Intermediate
View attachment 58237View attachment 58234

hehe... Just like with tires, power, and lightness: The more aero the better. On slower tracks you can always trim out the wing to a low AOA.

View attachment 58238View attachment 58235

I am always looking at the rules and running the largest chord / widest wing / mounted as high as allowed. Them trim it out to match the max allowed front aero and/or the particular track.

Can't wait to see the final weight of this one. Lightweight S550s are possible. :)View attachment 58236
thanks for the input!!! Weight coming soon!
 

bob

TMO Advanced
188
121
sfo
Hey Chuck,

Paint the back rear window deck "black" so the reflections off the white don't prevent you from seeing me coming to pass you. 😃
 

ChuckBilodeau

TMO Intermediate
Overall, the weekend went well. Here were the main problems:

1- The guys at 5 star forgot (even though I told them clearly many times) to setup the tune with the smaller diameter wheels and the 4.10 diff. The result, the car would cut off at like 100mph, waisted almost a day at the track, not fun.

2- When I finally got to go fast, the engine would overheat even though it was rather cool outside, I run an oil cooler and a mild tune. The oem radiator just can't handle track duty. Saw 220+ deg briefly. Everything seems fine though. I would notice a substantial power loss when the engine got hotter, only in my head? I installed the larger Mishimoto rad and will work on the shrouding, it should take care of that.

3- The tranny also overheated ( I suppose; no tranny temps) and started acting super weird, as if it was slipping. We opened it and everything seemed fine, I replaced the clutches with Raybestos clutches just in case. did it only overheat?! Who knows, I will be adding a diff cooler.

4- The exhaust collar near the front of the car popped off twice, small detail, i'll tack weld it.

I did not really have much time to play with the suspension, but the car felt good. I will have to get rid of some understeer that's for sure. From what I see, the large Ford Perfomance front sway bar is not a popular item for racing (i think even the GT4 uses the OEM front bar). I'll just switch back for the OEM bar. Inputs?

When the tranny was in good operating temps, it was doing a very decent job, but i'll keep on playing with the tune. The guys at cobb offered to help. but I got surprisingly fast time considering everything and the tiny tires. Cant wait to get back at it.
 

Scootsmcgreggor

TMO Intermediate
Great to follow your build, keep the updates coming!

when you say you saw coolant temps 220* is that data from the OEM gauge cluster/Accessport or an aftermarket gauge?

Also I bet 4.10's with the A10 when its working is a ton of fun.
 
Last edited:

bob

TMO Advanced
188
121
sfo
Chuck,

I'm also racing 2019 A10 PP1 Gt but in SCCA T2. I have not raced in any high ambient temps and only 5 races on the chassis. It could be that total heat load management is the key? So maybe a big Ron Davis or a balance of big oil cooler and stock radiator? In my case so far not racing about 75F ambient I doing fine with stock PP1 radiator and giant Derale oil cooler and same sized derale tranny cooler. Everything is happy for me except the diff.

Sometimes I outsmart myself. I took the PP1 stock tranny cooler and being a cheap turd repurposed it to the 350gt position and used it with a tilton pump for the diff and wired it into the defroster swtich so I did not have to add another switch and wiring. The defroster idea might be a bust. I think the defroster has a timer in it and turns itself off after some time. I still have not figured out if my over temp warning was from the repurposed diff cooler not being big enough or the system shut off (while I kept racing) because I wired into the defroster? The diff is so small I would think the stock tranny cooler would be big enough to cool the diff.. Mybe I'll have to add a fan or direct the airflow better?
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ChuckBilodeau

TMO Intermediate
Great to follow your build, keep the updates coming!

when you say you saw coolant temps 220* is that data from the OEM gauge cluster/Accessport or an aftermarket gauge?

Also I bet 4.10's with the A10 when its working is a ton of fun.
Thanks, yeah I have more time now i'll be more rigorous with my updates...

I have an AIM dash for the temp.

oh yeah it's fun, but it almost shifts too often. It's just hilarious, I feel like i'm driving an F1 with super close gear hahaha
 

ChuckBilodeau

TMO Intermediate
Chuck,

I'm also racing 2019 A10 PP1 Gt but in SCCA T2. I have not raced in any high ambient temps and only 5 races on the chassis. It could be that total heat load management is the key? So maybe a big Ron Davis or a balance of big oil cooler and stock radiator? In my case so far not racing about 75F ambient I doing fine with stock PP1 radiator and giant Derale oil cooler and same sized derale tranny cooler. Everything is happy for me except the diff.

Sometimes I outsmart myself. I took the PP1 stock tranny cooler and being a cheap turd repurposed it to the 350gt position and used it with a tilton pump for the diff and wired it into the defroster swtich so I did not have to add another switch and wiring. The defroster idea might be a bust. I think the defroster has a timer in it and turns itself off after some time. I still have not figured out if my over temp warning was from the repurposed diff cooler not being big enough or the system shut off (while I kept racing) because I wired into the defroster? The diff is so small I would think the stock tranny cooler would be big enough to cool the diff.. Mybe I'll have to add a fan or direct the airflow better?
Don't forget, i'm pretty sure your OEM rad is bigger than mine. the base ecoboost rad is so narrow, it's almost a joke. Anyway it did not do the job with the mishimoto oil cooler. Mind yo,u I had basically no shrouding in place since I had removed the AC and it did not fit anymore, for some reason I thougt i'd be fine loosing the shrouding since there was not AC rad to block the air flow. Wrong.

What a great idea the trans cooler for the diff. I'm hoping the mishimoto rad with shrouding will do the job, dont forget i'm running an almost stock ecoboost. That rad can also cool adequately a modified V8. Anyway with the mishimoto oil cooler and rad i'm feeling pretty confident.

Now i'm not sure what happened with the tranny, did it overheat? there is no OEM temp gauge, I guess I should install one. it's weird cuz it already has a cooler well place in front of everything, and it's sizeable. What do you guys think?

For the diff, same thing, I have no sensor, but you think the 350hp of the ecoboost will make it overheat? I do not wish to add weight, but I dont want to loose a diff. It seems fine after a weekend of racing, but... better safe than sorry I guess
 

bob

TMO Advanced
188
121
sfo
Don't forget, i'm pretty sure your OEM rad is bigger than mine. the base ecoboost rad is so narrow, it's almost a joke. Anyway it did not do the job with the mishimoto oil cooler. Mind yo,u I had basically no shrouding in place since I had removed the AC and it did not fit anymore, for some reason I thougt i'd be fine loosing the shrouding since there was not AC rad to block the air flow. Wrong.

What a great idea the trans cooler for the diff. I'm hoping the mishimoto rad with shrouding will do the job, dont forget i'm running an almost stock ecoboost. That rad can also cool adequately a modified V8. Anyway with the mishimoto oil cooler and rad i'm feeling pretty confident.

Now i'm not sure what happened with the tranny, did it overheat? there is no OEM temp gauge, I guess I should install one. it's weird cuz it already has a cooler well place in front of everything, and it's sizeable. What do you guys think?

For the diff, same thing, I have no sensor, but you think the 350hp of the ecoboost will make it overheat? I do not wish to add weight, but I dont want to loose a diff. It seems fine after a weekend of racing, but... better safe than sorry I guess
I'm actually running no shrouds for the same reason. Flyhalf says shrouds made a big difference for hiim but he goes to Buttonwillow in the summer at 95F in the shade! I never go there between May-November. So you'll have to figure that one out for yourself but it makes sense to shroud...I'm just lazy. Others still seem to have hot engines running Mish oil coolers. Some are OK others not. I know my cheap derale is bigger and both cheap and bigger appealed to me. Plus Derale has a frame thing to hold the pair of coolers that is a perfect fit in my GT S550. I think my removing the A/C condensor helps too. I also think there is a laminar air flow thing too with stacked coolers. I think if you have an oil cooler 4" in front of the radiator vs say 1/2" from the radiator the engine will be cooler with the close proximity coolers. I have no science for that opinion just how my brain thinks.

Yes! on shifting too much. I'm tired out doing all the shifting and paying attention to it. I think there is merit to say a 7 speed DCT BMW vs, shifting all the time S550Mustang. My A10 might shift just as fast but I have to make 2 downshifts where in the BMW 7speed it would have been 1 downshift. I'm not sure is this is costing us time or it the downshifts are in the dead off throttle time anyway. But if you did 2 downshifts you might have 2 on throttle upshifts vs 1 for a 7speed DCT. Does that cost us time?

Shifts are fast and smooth and sometimes I can't tell the car shifted. I wish there was a bit more noise or feel in my butt (actually quite impressed how there is zero chassis upset so maybe not feel it but hear it more). I end up looking for the little numbers to make sure I'm in the right gear sometimes. I hate that because it takes my attention from other things. I'm a real idiot and not real good shifting with paddles...yet. I have on occasion get target fixated and miss an upshift holding into redline and then the cough cough RPM limiter. The then car slaps my hand and will delay upshift as a penalty for me being stupid. Pulling the paddles harder and more the car just says "FU you loser". Back to the smooth rev matched downshifts sometimes, I'll be a bit too high an RPM for the gear downshifting to and pull the downshift paddle just a bit too early. It will not shift down. Then I turn get back to gas and be in the wrong gear because the car did not shift. So for me it is not about the car not shifting it is me doing dumb stuff. If I drive the car right the tranny is perfect. If the programing says you can't downshift over 6500rpm (pulled number out my a$$) in the chosen lower gear the programing is the programing. Your car isn't going to downshift at 6501RPM. Flyhalf has had all kinds of A10 problems and is on his 3rd tranny under warrantee. He isn't very happy since his new 3rd tranny isn't shifting right on occasion. Maybe you guys are smarter than me and don't make mistakes, but I wonder how many shifting problems are driver induced? I know mine are.

I don't know what induces diff heat but my GT has a class ruled 50mm restrictor plate. So I'm probably at similar 350HP maybe 370HP so very close to yours and I can overheat the diff in just a few hot laps. I'm still working out my diff cooling kinks so we will probably have it figured out together.
 

ChuckBilodeau

TMO Intermediate
I'm actually running no shrouds for the same reason. Flyhalf says shrouds made a big difference for hiim but he goes to Buttonwillow in the summer at 95F in the shade! I never go there between May-November. So you'll have to figure that one out for yourself but it makes sense to shroud...I'm just lazy. Others still seem to have hot engines running Mish oil coolers. Some are OK others not. I know my cheap derale is bigger and both cheap and bigger appealed to me. Plus Derale has a frame thing to hold the pair of coolers that is a perfect fit in my GT S550. I think my removing the A/C condensor helps too. I also think there is a laminar air flow thing too with stacked coolers. I think if you have an oil cooler 4" in front of the radiator vs say 1/2" from the radiator the engine will be cooler with the close proximity coolers. I have no science for that opinion just how my brain thinks.

Yes! on shifting too much. I'm tired out doing all the shifting and paying attention to it. I think there is merit to say a 7 speed DCT BMW vs, shifting all the time S550Mustang. My A10 might shift just as fast but I have to make 2 downshifts where in the BMW 7speed it would have been 1 downshift. I'm not sure is this is costing us time or it the downshifts are in the dead off throttle time anyway. But if you did 2 downshifts you might have 2 on throttle upshifts vs 1 for a 7speed DCT. Does that cost us time?

Shifts are fast and smooth and sometimes I can't tell the car shifted. I wish there was a bit more noise or feel in my butt (actually quite impressed how there is zero chassis upset so maybe not feel it but hear it more). I end up looking for the little numbers to make sure I'm in the right gear sometimes. I hate that because it takes my attention from other things. I'm a real idiot and not real good shifting with paddles...yet. I have on occasion get target fixated and miss an upshift holding into redline and then the cough cough RPM limiter. The then car slaps my hand and will delay upshift as a penalty for me being stupid. Pulling the paddles harder and more the car just says "FU you loser". Back to the smooth rev matched downshifts sometimes, I'll be a bit too high an RPM for the gear downshifting to and pull the downshift paddle just a bit too early. It will not shift down. Then I turn get back to gas and be in the wrong gear because the car did not shift. So for me it is not about the car not shifting it is me doing dumb stuff. If I drive the car right the tranny is perfect. If the programing says you can't downshift over 6500rpm (pulled number out my a$$) in the chosen lower gear the programing is the programing. Your car isn't going to downshift at 6501RPM. Flyhalf has had all kinds of A10 problems and is on his 3rd tranny under warrantee. He isn't very happy since his new 3rd tranny isn't shifting right on occasion. Maybe you guys are smarter than me and don't make mistakes, but I wonder how many shifting problems are driver induced? I know mine are.

I don't know what induces diff heat but my GT has a class ruled 50mm restrictor plate. So I'm probably at similar 350HP maybe 370HP so very close to yours and I can overheat the diff in just a few hot laps. I'm still working out my diff cooling kinks so we will probably have it figured out together.
For a lazy guy, you did a really nice job with your oil coolers! I think the shrouds also prevent from getting massive amounts of air in the engine compartment. Same here, it needs some getting used to the the smoothness is insane, I find myself shifting in the middle of corners no problem. I agree with with most of the problems being driver error, but I would like a little bit more snappiness, especially on the downshifts. I installed the new raybestos (blue?) clutches and will get the guys at Cobb to redo the maping and hopefully take it to the next level of responsiveness. I know this tranny has it in it, we just a need a good wizard to work it out.

But right now its insane on the straights, its like a constant freight train pulling and pulling, zero hesitation.
 

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