Car down on power and misfire, rough idle, mostly in closed loop mode(warmed up)

[Grant 302]

Alcohols are often/normally responsible for 'rust' colors on plugs when used. I have heard to change fuel filters often when running it, but that's from my 'ancient' knowledge running it back in the '80s. Never had a problem with it, but that was with carbs and an frequently rebuilt motorcycles.

 

[twistedneck]

Ok, quick update.


I pulled the injectors and plugs.. Looking at the plugs again they are all relatively the same that goes against my first thoughts. Also, I checked my emails and the P0302 and P0300 codes have been hitting before we changed to E85.. so I don't know if its related or not. I assume so but I don't know how.

Video of plugs - they look like a WW2 battleship found at the bottom of the ocean but they are pretty similar to each other. I think my tons of E70 driving on E85 tune is making them look so rich.

http://1drv.ms/1IbilmJ


Video of injectors 1-4 - Holy cow 1 and 4 look terrible.. I did not run an oil catch can. I just put a Bobs catch can on today.

http://1drv.ms/1OnfJRC


Video of injectors 5-8 - again, 5 is bad, 8 is horrible.

http://1drv.ms/1Ong4DL


Video of injectors still in rails.

http://1drv.ms/1OngwBX


links to images of individual injectors are below.. I have not cleaned them yet. I have four new injectors on the way so i'm going to replace the four bad ones 1,4,5,8. I can clean the other ones. Also, for injector 2 that looks good - i'll move that to another good cylinder like #6 or #7. that way if the P0302 code moves to P0307 i'll know its the #2 injector even though it looks good. The injectors that look bad have a thick black sticky hard coating that will not come off with wiping.

So, how do I clean injectors 2,3,6,7? they don't look that bad.


http://checkja.com/images/inj1.jpg

http://checkja.com/images/inj2.jpg

http://checkja.com/images/inj3.jpg

http://checkja.com/images/inj4.jpg

http://checkja.com/images/inj5.jpg

http://checkja.com/images/inj6.jpg

http://checkja.com/images/inj7.jpg

http://checkja.com/images/inj8.jpg


Thoughts?

 

[VoodooBoss]

I've seen better looking plugs. Is that typical with e85? Nice touch with the IndyCar race on in the background.

I believe your car is an 11 or 12 and they threw a lot of P03xx codes for many reasons including no reason at all. Hopefully cleaning or replacing the injectors will fix your issues.

 

[twistedneck]

Update, new injectors on the car and used the bore scope. Still not fixed. I also looked at my valves.. nothing burnt.

Same thing, when its cold its perfect, as soon as it goes into closed loop mode and starts reading the O2 sensors it f's up the idle and if I give it even more gas it just goes on a frenzy of misfires.

No engine light, that's odd.. before the injector swap out it was throwing P0302 a lot. probably an unrelated issue.

Used a can of ether to look for vacuum leaks, nothing. Next up, replace the O2 sensors.

Ideas?

Side note: the cylinders with the oily injectors also had a ton of fresh oil and carbon on the intake valve stems and backs. the middle cylinders that were not getting drenched with PCV oil were much cleaner although still carbon covered but thin and smooth.. I think with the catch can it should help.

With the amount of overlap I run in my cam tune I think exhaust gas is laying down a lot of carbon during the overlap period.
Hope the oil issue is fixed now with the Bobs catch can.

So do you all agree that the O2 sensors are next? w/o any codes to go off of this is a gut thing.

 

[Grant 302]

Check your intake for large amounts of oil pooled in the plenum. And while the catch can does help, I think a breather can would be better until you have the problem(s) clear up.

Since the oil shows up mainly in the outer cylinders, I suspect it is getting sucked up in large quantities under acceleration and braking. And I also suspect that that's what outright fouled your 02 sensors.

 

[twistedneck]

Check your intake for large amounts of oil pooled in the plenum. And while the catch can does help, I think a breather can would be better until you have the problem(s) clear up.

Since the oil shows up mainly in the outer cylinders, I suspect it is getting sucked up in large quantities under acceleration and braking. And I also suspect that that's what outright fouled your 02 sensors.

Interesting.. That implies I will have a bad leakdown test result? Or possibly compression test problem.

Can you help me understand why it would only be in the outer cylinders? You mean mechanical braking and accelerating forces throwing vast amounts of pcv oil fore and aft?

What can make these motors throw tons of oil in the pcv?

 

[Grant 302]

I don't think it means anything bad! At least not yet.

These engines just suck in a LOT of oil vapor when lifting the throttle or any engine braking. The GT intakes essentially pool and store it in the plenum. When you have enough to slosh around, I could see it getting sucked up in the back cylinders when accelerating and from the front cylinders when braking.

You could check by removing your throttle body and getting a rolled up paper towel or a clean section of rope to see if it soaks up any oil like a dipstick.

 

[twistedneck]

I don't think it means anything bad! At least not yet.

These engines just suck in a LOT of oil vapor when lifting the throttle or any engine braking. The GT intakes essentially pool and store it in the plenum. When you have enough to slosh around, I could see it getting sucked up in the back cylinders when accelerating and from the front cylinders when braking.

You could check by removing your throttle body and getting a rolled up paper towel or a clean section of rope to see if it soaks up any oil like a dipstick.

I looked down all 8 cylinders today w the cheapo endoscope. I went in through the injector holes. Lots of oil in the back two cylinders.. You can see the spray pattern from the fuel injector cleaning the oil in that area.

Middle cylinders look a lot better.. Fronts bad but not as bad as the backs. I have the cobra jet intake.

So far this driving season I have put about 2000 miles on it, burned a qt of oil, maybe a touch more.

Maybe the catch can or external breather would let me get another season out if it? It will depend how long the o2 sensors last. I don't have cats either if that matters.

 

[Grant 302]

I guess the same would still remain plausible for just oil vapor sucked through the CJ intake. More vapor in the back under acceleration and some in the front on decel. Since the CJ intake makes more power, I'm sure it draws more vacuum under the same conditions...and then pulls more oily crankcase air.

 

[twistedneck]

I guess the same would still remain plausible for just oil vapor sucked through the CJ intake. More vapor in the back under acceleration and some in the front on decel. Since the CJ intake makes more power, I'm sure it draws more vacuum under the same conditions...and then pulls more oily crankcase air.

its pretty sad that for all this time i was driving and looking at oil oozing out of the pcv inlet to the intake.. i was like, is that just leaky or is it extra oily? i bet a good catch can, or better yet a breather system would have dealt with the blow by issue w/o a problem.

Only 15,000 miles and it looks this bad (see pics below) - the cam overlap, huge amount of extra overlap in my cam tune, and a lot of blow by oil!!!

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=88D807241B608921!37164&authkey=!AMGqQ2t2TgJZFfw&ithint=folder%2c

if the new O2 sensors fix the misfires and IF i can keep the oil out of the intake - will that carbon on number 8 cylinder ever go away? it looks like it would cost HP. piston tops and combustion chambers bad too..

 

[Grant 302]

Eventually, some of the carbon buildup might come off. I wouldn't count on it being really clean without taking apart the top end and physically cleaning it.

 

[F.D. Sako]

Something like seafoam may help clean it up further, but I have no experience with it on newer engines.

 

[twistedneck]

I logged my O2 sensors. First was voltage.. for some reason Bank one voltage is much lower than bank 2.
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=88D807241B608921!37167&authkey=!AGlnIh-8-TdJG3c&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg

Then i logged the other available item, current. Bank 1 had no current response, Bank 3 (not sure what its called that) had the expected up down step function. i tried this multiple ways with Bank 1 not responding.

Is bank one the drivers side?

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

I logged my O2 sensors. First was voltage.. for some reason Bank one voltage is much lower than bank 2.
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=88D807241B608921!37167&authkey=!AGlnIh-8-TdJG3c&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg

Then i logged the other available item, current. Bank 1 had no current response, Bank 3 (not sure what its called that) had the expected up down step function. i tried this multiple ways with Bank 1 not responding.

Is bank one the drivers side?

Bank 1 is passenger side, assuming they are going by cylinder numbers (1-4 pass side)

 

[BigTaco]

Check your intake for large amounts of oil pooled in the plenum. And while the catch can does help, I think a breather can would be better until you have the problem(s) clear up.

Since the oil shows up mainly in the outer cylinders, I suspect it is getting sucked up in large quantities under acceleration and braking. And I also suspect that that's what outright fouled your 02 sensors.

This.

 

[twistedneck]

This.

OK, finally some improvements! I looked up how to clean O2 sensors online the only one that seemed plausible was this Spanish language youtube where he said he the O2 tip to orange hot all around and it will burn off whats blocking the sensor. I did that. Took the car for a spin, it was 90% improved. this is the bank 1 passenger side. I started to misfire soon as it warmed up but a lot less.. then I kept driving it and decided to throttle it up. Sure enough it drove fine again. It did feel slightly down on power not sure if that's the sensor still not 100%. I'm going to log that same log tonight and see if it looks better. These coyote 5.0's must throw some serious oil at least the 2011 / 2012's.

Bob's catch can is it for now - i'm hoping to re-build the engine this winter and put some affordable Manley rods / Wiseco slugs in, at that time i'll put some more stout rings in there too and re-do the heads.

Think this will make it to October w/o clogging up the sensor again? Or, will it just puke out later tonight.. hmmmm..

Update- that was quick.. car runs 80 pct. better than before but still down on power and has a misfire. finally got a code p2626 - O2 sensor 1 bank 1, so I guess my cleaning job helped but did not fix it. i'll let ya'll know what happens when I replace the sensor tomorrow. wish me luck!

 

[VoodooBoss]

I'm glad you're making progress on this. Some engines seem to suck more oil than others. My original engine used oil a lot when new then dropped off after a few thousand miles but it always drank some oil. My new engine doesn't drink any oil and hasn't since it was new. Regardless neither engine has sucked much oil in my oil catch can or breather so don't be surprised if added either won't fix your problem.

https://trackmustangsonline.com/index.php?topic=880.0

 

[twistedneck]

Eventually, some of the carbon buildup might come off. I wouldn't count on it being really clean without taking apart the top end and physically cleaning it.

Did a ton of searching on all the snake oil's out there..This CRC intake valve cleaner is the only one with a decent premise. And its pretty new.

http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php

You spray it in the running engine and the solvents directly start attacking / cleaning the carbon off.. i'm going to do a couple of these treatments before i put the new O2's on.

That and it looks like B12 is the most potent carbon cleaning solvent you can add to the tank. I know the only way to fix this is a teardown, and i'm planning that. But until then i'm going to try some different snake oils

 

[superhero]

CRC make some good products. I don't think that I would think of them as snake oil. you have to believe. Hope it helps and keep us posted.

 

[BigTaco]

Yeah, a good cleaning could only help. This is a good example of how a good breather system should be a mandatory part of any coyote based "build". This is not the sort of think that happens suddenly, the oil builds overtime. The Peterson kit (any variation of) is the only option out there that is going to move the oil completely out of the intake tract. The other side of that equitation is a good engine oil with a high viscosity index AND low volatility.