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CHE Performance Torque Limiter and K-Member Brace

ace72ace

Zaino, I put that $hit on everything
1,242
71
I had reported that when my Boss was bone stock, I had 2 very experienced drivers take my Boss for a ride, to evaluate the stock shifter under high RPM shift from 2-3. Both the SCCA instructor and the hardcore drag racer missed the 2-3 shift. The instructor who races M3's immediately commented that drivetrain deflection was the cause of the miss. The drag racer just said 'That shifter's gotta go!' This was on another forum :eek: so I was waiting to finish all my mods before drawing any specific conclusions regarding this issue.

With that, I've upgraded to the MGW shifter, and want both drivers to take another turn behind the wheel and see if under about the same conditions, if they experience the same 'flub' in the 2-3 shift. I trust the opinion of the instructor and was considering the CHE Performance K-Brace and Torque limiter if the hard shift into 3rd is still missed by either driver *with* the MGW installed.

My seat of the pants, no basis in fact, guess is that the MGW is not the cure all, and that the CHE solution might just be the ticket.

I've not heard of anyone on this forum yet trying this solution, so I wanted to start a thread regarding this method of curing the missed 2-3 high RPM shift.

http://www.cheperformance.com/ProdList.asp?scat=92

http://forums.themustangsource.com/f726/mt-82-my-brand-new-2013-a-511681/index5/#post6430674

I already deposited my 2c on this thread @ TMS, so I'm welcoming all here to please share their views.
 
I think you looking in the right direction. I recently put in an MGW and love it, light years ahead of the stock shifter but I dont think its going to fix it. I dont know if you need to go to the brace though. Has anyone changed out the motor mounts yet? I had a bullitt before the boss, it was putting down close to 500hp. Everyone one complained about the shifter with the 3650 trans as well, yet I had the stock shifter with some urathane mounts on the engine, and I never missed a shift.
 

zzyzx

Steve
299
0
This makes sense to me. However, looks like for 2011+ it's not a simple bolt on. From what I can tell, the part needs some modification to work correctly? I think it'd be highly preferable if they change the design to work out of the box.
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
Which one fits the boss? All I see is for the 4.6L or doesnt it matter? I am willing to try it but I dont really miss any gears in the car now....only when the clutch sticks to the floor.
 
The CHE limiters are useless. 100% useless. Their k brace is as well.

Only 1 company makes a brace thats even close to worthy and thats the Hotchkis. We have installed a few of them and very well constructed. But this will still not help your high rpm issue.

On the newer cars IE 11+, the high rpm shifting is not really an issue like it was in the 05-10 models. Getting rid of the linkage arm was a step in the right direction. I know people who can shift these cars even using the stock shifter no problem up to 8k. I can shift them a lot faster then my 05 too.

The ONLY way to eliminate the high rpm is swapping to a dual disc clutch or a HD single disc. What I recommend for a single disc is the Exedy Mach 700 which is rated up to 800ft lbs of trq and for twin, it will be the McLeod RXT which handles up to 1000hp and has a stock feel to it.
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
The CHE limiters are useless. 100% useless. Their k brace is as well.

Only 1 company makes a brace thats even close to worthy and thats the Hotchkis. We have installed a few of them and very well constructed. But this will still not help your high rpm issue.

On the newer cars IE 11+, the high rpm shifting is not really an issue like it was in the 05-10 models. Getting rid of the linkage arm was a step in the right direction. I know people who can shift these cars even using the stock shifter no problem up to 8k. I can shift them a lot faster then my 05 too.

The ONLY way to eliminate the high rpm is swapping to a dual disc clutch or a HD single disc. What I recommend for a single disc is the Exedy Mach 700 which is rated up to 800ft lbs of trq and for twin, it will be the McLeod RXT which handles up to 1000hp and has a stock feel to it.
Have you used a centerforce DYAD Twin disc set up? I have used Centerforce in the past and they have always been my go to clutch.
 

ace72ace

Zaino, I put that $hit on everything
1,242
71
The CHE limiters are useless. 100% useless. Their k brace is as well.

Only 1 company makes a brace thats even close to worthy and thats the Hotchkis. We have installed a few of them and very well constructed. But this will still not help your high rpm issue.

On the newer cars IE 11+, the high rpm shifting is not really an issue like it was in the 05-10 models. Getting rid of the linkage arm was a step in the right direction. I know people who can shift these cars even using the stock shifter no problem up to 8k. I can shift them a lot faster then my 05 too.

The ONLY way to eliminate the high rpm is swapping to a dual disc clutch or a HD single disc. What I recommend for a single disc is the Exedy Mach 700 which is rated up to 800ft lbs of trq and for twin, it will be the McLeod RXT which handles up to 1000hp and has a stock feel to it.

So you know people who can shift these cars with the stock shifter, great. On my car, I have missed the 2-3 shift, as well as the other 2 experienced drivers as mentioned in the 1st post. I'm looking for a solution. When you call the CHE hardware 100% useless have you seen yourself or been told first hand that this kit was installed and the missed 2-3 shift at high RPM still occurred? Was this on a '12 or '13 Boss?

I'm gonna have my bud take another turn behind the wheel and test if the MGW upgrade works for him, but I've missed 2-3 after the MGW upgrade so my guess is he'll miss it again. Before I drop almost $300 into this 'solution' I'd like a little more info on why it's useless.
 
ace72ace said:
So you know people who can shift these cars with the stock shifter, great. On my car, I have missed the 2-3 shift, as well as the other 2 experienced drivers as mentioned in the 1st post. I'm looking for a solution. When you call the CHE hardware 100% useless have you seen yourself or been told first hand that this kit was installed and the missed 2-3 shift at high RPM still occurred? Was this on a '12 or '13 Boss?

I'm gonna have my bud take another turn behind the wheel and test if the MGW upgrade works for him, but I've missed 2-3 after the MGW upgrade so my guess is he'll miss it again. Before I drop almost $300 into this 'solution' I'd like a little more info on why it's useless.
In the short time I've had it installed I've missed more shifts with my MGW than I did in the one year I used the stock shifter. Recently I asked a Ford engineer about a torque limiter and he cautioned me about using it and didn't think it would solve shifting issues. If you start taking out play in the transmission mounting then where do you stop? Engine mounts? Suspension components? Give it a try and let us know what you think.
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
5 DOT 0 said:
ace72ace said:
So you know people who can shift these cars with the stock shifter, great. On my car, I have missed the 2-3 shift, as well as the other 2 experienced drivers as mentioned in the 1st post. I'm looking for a solution. When you call the CHE hardware 100% useless have you seen yourself or been told first hand that this kit was installed and the missed 2-3 shift at high RPM still occurred? Was this on a '12 or '13 Boss?

I'm gonna have my bud take another turn behind the wheel and test if the MGW upgrade works for him, but I've missed 2-3 after the MGW upgrade so my guess is he'll miss it again. Before I drop almost $300 into this 'solution' I'd like a little more info on why it's useless.
In the short time I've had it installed I've missed more shifts with my MGW than I did in the one year I used the stock shifter. Recently I asked a Ford engineer about a torque limiter and he cautioned me about using it and didn't think it would solve shifting issues. If you start taking out play in the transmission mounting then where do you stop? Engine mounts? Suspension components? Give it a try and let us know what you think.
Since I have had the MGW I never miss the 2-3 shift unless its because the clutch pedal stuck to the floor. The stock shifter I kept hitting 5th instead of 3rd during heated redline shifting.

This weekend if I get done with detailing that 07 GT I will be putting in a set of BBR motor mounts that I happen to have sitting in my garage that were left over from my 06 GT parts.
 
5 Dot 0,

Did the engineer mention any particular reason he was against the torque limiter? From what I've seen and read, most people swear it makes a huge improvement. I feel they the misalignment under torque caused by the remote shifter is the root of all our evils, so this should help it. However, I do have concerns about the mounting points that a few, although not many, have broken.

Having said that, wouldn't profane engine mounts do the same thing to a lesser extent?
 
We have installed the limiters and I know people with them that have had zero results with. The reason the limiter's will NOT help is because you are limited the motion of relying on 2 small links. It would be better to swap the motor mounts to adj ones that use a poly bushing over the stock rubber (which you have)

I'm sorry that you and a few others have trouble shifting but it's a 10/1 ratio with that. I am around these cars every day and I do know what works. Street, road course and 1/4,

Swapping out the clutch will solve the issue. We have seen this 100 times. One of the other cheap mods people do to help is swap to the Barton 2 post bracket. More people like the stock shifter feel then the Barton or MGW. I myself perfer the Barton. I have played with both and it feels the firmest.

Trust me on this.
 
CPTMac689 said:
5 Dot 0,

Did the engineer mention any particular reason he was against the torque limiter? From what I've seen and read, most people swear it makes a huge improvement. I feel they the misalignment under torque caused by the remote shifter is the root of all our evils, so this should help it. However, I do have concerns about the mounting points that a few, although not many, have broken.
He didn't say he was against it and I didn't post that. His point was that he didn't think it was going to help.
 
5 DOT 0 said:
CPTMac689 said:
5 Dot 0,

Did the engineer mention any particular reason he was against the torque limiter? From what I've seen and read, most people swear it makes a huge improvement. I feel they the misalignment under torque caused by the remote shifter is the root of all our evils, so this should help it. However, I do have concerns about the mounting points that a few, although not many, have broken.
He didn't say he was against it and I didn't post that. His point was that he didn't think it was going to help.

Hey, my apologies. I assumed that "he cautioned me against using it" equated to he was against it. And, although not a Ford engineer, I am an engineer also. And IF, big if, the root cause is misalignment between shifter and transmission, than the torque limiter most definitely would help. That doesn't mean that it could not create other issues, but it would help that particular one. If the Ford engineer is confident to say he doesn't think it would help than that would mean that he has some idea of the actual root cause of the issue.

Also, the issue I am specifically referring to is the crunchy, catchy, 1-2, 2-3 and 3-4 shifts some people experience. This is definitely a completely different issue than the high rev, clutch stays on the floor problem, which I think we allmost all agree is most definitely the insufficient clutch.
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
CPTMac689 said:
5 DOT 0 said:
CPTMac689 said:
5 Dot 0,

Did the engineer mention any particular reason he was against the torque limiter? From what I've seen and read, most people swear it makes a huge improvement. I feel they the misalignment under torque caused by the remote shifter is the root of all our evils, so this should help it. However, I do have concerns about the mounting points that a few, although not many, have broken.
He didn't say he was against it and I didn't post that. His point was that he didn't think it was going to help.

Hey, my apologies. I assumed that "he cautioned me against using it" equated to he was against it. And, although not a Ford engineer, I am an engineer also. And IF, big if, the root cause is misalignment between shifter and transmission, than the torque limiter most definitely would help. That doesn't mean that it could not create other issues, but it would help that particular one. If the Ford engineer is confident to say he doesn't think it would help than that would mean that he has some idea of the actual root cause of the issue.

Also, the issue I am specifically referring to is the crunchy, catchy, 1-2, 2-3 and 3-4 shifts some people experience. This is definitely a completely different issue than the high rev, clutch stays on the floor problem, which I think we allmost all agree is most definitely the insufficient clutch.
I think the cruncy catchy not going into gear has very much to do with the clutch. To me it just feels like at quick shifts even below 7k it seems not to fully release. so the slight drag causes the syncros to work over time to make the shift and after say 7-8k miles it really starts to show its face.

if all goes well I should have the centerforce DYAD setup in my car by next month's end. see if it makes it smooth as butter like it once was after I first installed the MGW shifter.
 
CPTMac689 said:
Also, the issue I am specifically referring to is the crunchy, catchy, 1-2, 2-3 and 3-4 shifts some people experience. This is definitely a completely different issue than the high rev, clutch stays on the floor problem, which I think we allmost all agree is most definitely the insufficient clutch.
My issue is lock-out at high RPM's while tracking my car and I think it's clutch related.
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
5 DOT 0 said:
CPTMac689 said:
Also, the issue I am specifically referring to is the crunchy, catchy, 1-2, 2-3 and 3-4 shifts some people experience. This is definitely a completely different issue than the high rev, clutch stays on the floor problem, which I think we allmost all agree is most definitely the insufficient clutch.
My issue is lock-out at high RPM's while tracking my car and I think it's clutch related.
me too brother and its getting to the point that I dont want to push the car at all on the street or otherwise. been driving sticks since 96 and the boss will make me look like I just learned yesterday in a second and I hate that.
 
Justin said:
CPTMac689 said:
5 DOT 0 said:
CPTMac689 said:
5 Dot 0,

Did the engineer mention any particular reason he was against the torque limiter? From what I've seen and read, most people swear it makes a huge improvement. I feel they the misalignment under torque caused by the remote shifter is the root of all our evils, so this should help it. However, I do have concerns about the mounting points that a few, although not many, have broken.
He didn't say he was against it and I didn't post that. His point was that he didn't think it was going to help.

Hey, my apologies. I assumed that "he cautioned me against using it" equated to he was against it. And, although not a Ford engineer, I am an engineer also. And IF, big if, the root cause is misalignment between shifter and transmission, than the torque limiter most definitely would help. That doesn't mean that it could not create other issues, but it would help that particular one. If the Ford engineer is confident to say he doesn't think it would help than that would mean that he has some idea of the actual root cause of the issue.

Also, the issue I am specifically referring to is the crunchy, catchy, 1-2, 2-3 and 3-4 shifts some people experience. This is definitely a completely different issue than the high rev, clutch stays on the floor problem, which I think we allmost all agree is most definitely the insufficient clutch.
I think the cruncy catchy not going into gear has very much to do with the clutch. To me it just feels like at quick shifts even below 7k it seems not to fully release. so the slight drag causes the syncros to work over time to make the shift and after say 7-8k miles it really starts to show its face.

if all goes well I should have the centerforce DYAD setup in my car by next month's end. see if it makes it smooth as butter like it once was after I first installed the MGW shifter.

I have considered this too. I think it is very plausible. In fact, I've felt sometimes like the clutch didn't fully disengage. That's why I said "big IF, about the shifter misalignment. I am VERY curious to hear about your results after change to a better clutch. I'm really tired of the 2-3 crunch and it seems like its gotten worse in the last week or so. I'm just under 4,000 miles.
 
This is such a sore subject no doubt and with so many people having these problems. I have to wonder how many people will stick with the car in the long run. There is no question at all at least 70% is the clutches maybe 30% from the transmission. I had a real nice thing happen, I took my Boss from work for a drive in the Boss mustang, well it was real nice when I wanted to show him how fast it was and could not shift worth a crap, he looked at me and said are you kidding me nice clutch ford. So I asked him why clutch? he said well it's in the clutch and maybe a bit in the shift forks/sincros ? He was a head engineer at borg and warner for 20 years. He started telling me of all of the things they went through making transmissions better and said the shift forks are so important to be able to get in and out of those gears. He said if I had to guess it's all in the clutch system. He has not done that type of work in a while so he may not really be sure. I and pretty sure as the deeper I get into this car I am finding out alot of parts that are well regular compared to the brag on them. I will say if I end up keeping this car then like everything else I own I will make it the best it can be. The entire clutch system right now is on decision to me but if I do it will start right at the pedal and go completely to the crankshaft. I believe the entire clutch system is pretty much regular and cannot handle the motor it's on.
 
I suspect the clutch too, but I don't think that is the whole problem. Mostly because when I bleed the clutch, it gets a LOT better but doesn't affect some of the things like the 3rd lock out.
 
175
0
Use stiffer motor mounts and fill your transmission mount with liquid rubber. Those points were designed to hold the motor in place. The torque limiters fastening to the bell housing has been known to break the aluminum bell housing. You can lower the engine 3/4" with poly motor mounts so you're getting two for one.
 

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