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Clutch assist spring good or bad open thread

Ok I will start out by saying I believe it was a terrible result based on the spring working against another spring and putting down force on the clutch pedal all the time. The idea of making a clutch feel easy may have been a good idea to some people. The one thing I can say is I am not the first person whom has taken that spring off. Why not? I will admit at first I thought how could a spring hurt this car from shifting until I actually took it out and got a good chance to see the size and the pressure this spring is capable of doing. Ok beat up my thought or shine it up your choice. Here is an article to read of another person on the spring.

http://www.boss302forum.com/index.php?/topic/14258-clutch-sticking-during-high-rpm-shifts-how-to-fix-it/


When it comes to shifting gears, the '12 Boss 302 does it easier and faster than its predecessor. Clutch pedal exertion is smooth and effortless when compared to the high-effort pressure plate and flimsy linkage in the '69-'70 cars. The same can be said for the shifter. Throws are short and precise, nothing like the long throws with the old factory shifters, including the Hurst of '70. I will admit that it takes a little time to get accustomed to finding the right slots for the six-speed, especially the middle Third and Fourth gear positions.


http://www.mustangmonthly.com/featuredvehicles/mump_1110_2012_boss_302_whos_the_boss/index.html

Read more: http://www.mustangmonthly.com/featuredvehicles/mump_1110_2012_boss_302_whos_the_boss/index.html#ixzz1xF7h5I8m

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/2012-boss-302-mustang-373/836642-new-boss-owner.html
 

Dvendet

Everyone's entitled to my opinion. ;)
jeepinocala said:
Ok I will start out by saying I believe it was a terrible result based on the spring working against another spring and putting down force on the clutch pedal all the time. The idea of making a clutch feel easy may have been a good idea to some people. The one thing I can say is I am not the first person whom has taken that spring off. Why not? I will admit at first I thought how could a spring hurt this car from shifting until I actually took it out and got a good chance to see the size and the pressure this spring is capable of doing. Ok beat up my thought or shine it up your choice. Here is an article to read of another person on the spring.

Jeep,

So are you saying you are a proponent of removing the clutch assist spring or are you saying you are sitting on the fence on this topic?

MMD
 
I 100% believe the spring is a really bad idea and can hinder this car. So I tested my car on the way home from work today with my standard key. I have read alot of stories of shifting problems from people saying rev limit shifting wont go into second gear to people saying they cannot get into the higher gears as if it just does not want to shift. My car will not shift into 2,3, or 4th at rev limit and I wont except this I know this should not happen and if it does something is either wrong or done to stop you from shifting there are no other excuses. Some people told me to disconnect my skip shift and try it again, so I thought maybe they knew something I did not. I removed my clutch pedal spring after seeing how large and strong it is from my expeirence of prototype working for now over 20 years in the medical field I knew this is a bad idea. It is simple you have a return spring on a clutch pedal this helps keep the weight of the pedal off the clutch, the pedal without this spring will return as normal but will place it's weight on the clutch master cylinder '''ever herd of someone who rides the brake or rests their foot on the clutch''' Bad idea for sure. well this spring is very very strong look at it in your car push your clutch pedal down with your hand then do the same in any other car new or old it seems ford wanted to make the clutch easy. A very important part of this whole complaint is the case ends that the spring are held and guided in super key part of the problem for some of if not all of these cars. I removed my spring and now can shift any gear except 1st to 2nd on rev limiter my next point is to remove the skip shift and see if it helps that existing problem. I will say this if anyone buys one of these cars keep in mind these problems and why so if you do have it you will know what to do or ask to be checked. The guide for the spring is held by one pin and one bore hole to guide that spring so it does not shoot out. when this pedal is pressed completely to the floor I believe that guide pin can hangup on the front edge of the bore this I am going to check on alot more and cannot claim YET. I build things ten time more complicated then this car every day of my life I can say I do know a good or bad design when I see one and have inspected it. So my next venture is to measure the throw of the pedal so I can find out if there is enough room for the pedal to bind that guided pin in the middle of the spring cause I believe that was one of my problems the other one I believe is the skip shift we shall see. ;D
 

Dvendet

Everyone's entitled to my opinion. ;)
jeepinocala said:
I 100% believe the spring is a really bad idea and can .......
Thanks for your reply. I believe CaliNR has been saying the same thing with his clutch spring. Hopefully he can chime in here and tell us if removing this spring is working for him.

Do you have 12 or 13? Also, have you tried draining your trans and replacing with Redline MTL synthetic? A few posts have also suggested trying this too.

MMD
 
I have taken mine out and here is what I think is wrong with the setup. Where the alignment pin engages other plastic piece is to short. Letting the pin almost slide out if the pin was a little longer or the plastic guide was longer, it wouldn't get misaligned and hang up. I have thought about modding those parts to see if thats the problem, just haven't yet...
 
blitz do you have any photos of that part? Here's a thread on how to remove the pin at another forum and it has photos so maybe you can use them.

http://www.boss302forum.com/index.php?/topic/14258-clutch-sticking-during-high-rpm-shifts-how-to-fix-it/
 
5 DOT 0 said:
blitz do you have any photos of that part? Here's a thread on how to remove the pin at another forum and it has photos so maybe you can use them.

http://www.boss302forum.com/index.php?/topic/14258-clutch-sticking-during-high-rpm-shifts-how-to-fix-it/

I'm talking about the pin in the middle of the spring. Look at the sixth and last picture you can see the pin that i'm talking about. With the clutch pedal pushed in the spring opens up. Letting the pin slide out of the sleeve and causing the misalignment.
 
95blitz said:
I have taken mine out and here is what I think is wrong with the setup. Where the alignment pin engages other plastic piece is to short. Letting the pin almost slide out if the pin was a little longer or the plastic guide was longer, it wouldn't get misaligned and hang up. I have thought about modding those parts to see if thats the problem, just haven't yet...

I believe you an I have the same thought but here is the problem that I believe caused the entire problem with the center pin-the spring is captured by two ends that are held in place by the pins going through them on center so if you extend either the center pin or the bore hole it rides in you will bind the entire thing. They are so close that there is no room for error and I believe this is the cause. Another point is do you really want a spring pushing against your pedal. I plan to take complete measurements and calculate to find out the exact distance to either prove us wrong or prove ford wrong. I may even make a EXACT mockup to show anyone that does not believe us on this after I make damn sure it binds I do know this-for some reason where I could not shift correctly through 3rd , 4th never tried 5th but anyway now I can hum wonder why can it be that spring I took out? Then I am going after the 1st to 2nd shift lockout at rev limiter and will do the same tests.
 

Dvendet

Everyone's entitled to my opinion. ;)
Don't forget us Jeep. Keep us posted to what you learn. I think you may have picqued our interest in this topic.

MMD
 
Had time today to confirm 100% for sure removing the spring works as to being able to shift at rev limiter 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th so one problem is fixed now I am ever more convinced that the skip shift is stopping 1st to 2nd rev limit shifts if I can 100% confirm this I will then take it to my dealer and let them know cause I want something signed from ford that doing this will not void my warrantee and if they wont then they get the car back until it is fixed ;D
 
Today I am going to get all of the measurements off the spring and the plastic ends that hold the spring in place off of a comparator and I am also going to try and get the spring tested for tension to see just how strong it is. Hope to also measure the throw of the pedal so I can start figuring the exact problem out ;D
 

PeteInCT

#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
Moderator
2,848
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Connecticut
I'm not clear on how the revs of the engine have a correlation to the spring bindning or not ? How does the spring and its' pin know your revs ?

(FYI - I personally don't see this issue with my LS. I find myself banging up against the rev limiter typically in 3'rd gear before going into 4'th. The only lockout issues I've seen have been on downshifts and that was before I installed the MGW shifter. I don't ever drag the car and actually have never used launch mode with it, however I do drive it very hard on road courses).
 
PeteInCT said:
I'm not clear on how the revs of the engine have a correlation to the spring bindning or not ? How does the spring and its' pin know your revs ?

(FYI - I personally don't see this issue with my LS. I find myself banging up against the rev limiter typically in 3'rd gear before going into 4'th. The only lockout issues I've seen have been on downshifts and that was before I installed the MGW shifter. I don't ever drag the car and actually have never used launch mode with it, however I do drive it very hard on road courses).

I believe it has to do with yourself being you hear the revs so you naturally hit the clutch harder.
 

PeteInCT

#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
Moderator
2,848
13
Connecticut
Fair enough, I agree that it's totally possible. I also acknowledge that every car is different and some spring assemblies may perform vastly different than others. I do have a theory though, something additional to think about.

What I truly believe is that issue that a lot of peple have had (including myself) is related to the right hand and not the left foot. When we shift at slower speeds we are smoother and I believe more accurate in our shifter positioning through the gates. When we shift at the limit we tend (at least I used to) to grab the shifter ball like a bat and shift with a lot of torque, hence we lose our smoothness. I personally have been working on this exact thing in all of my events this year - to shift almost only with my fingers or the heel of my hand, never 'grab' the shifter knob and always allow the shifter to float to the next gear. It's not easy when you're driving near your own personal limit. The issue for me isthat the stock shifter had too much 'play' and allowed me to drive to move the shifter into a less than optimum angle moving from gate to gate. The result was the MT-82 not going into gear as I requested. The upgraded shifter, for me, solved the issue becuase not only is it a lot smoother it really prevents you from missing the gates becuase there is practically no play in the assembly.

IMHO ofr my issues. The spring may be anotehr issue waiting to happen - TBD....


-Pete
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
Do you believe this is what could be making it only come half way up its travel at 3-4 shifts in my car? It does make sense to me that it does this at high rpm with this spring cause if it is that strong it would over power the weak pressure plate springs that are trying to over come that centrifical force.
 
Two answers first as to the shifting and grabbing the knob no I do the finger palm shift it's pretty natural for me. I also have the mgw shifter and it is great. I believe it has something to do with the mashing of the clutch effecting the spring bind and the strength of the spring itself as of right now my spring is in our lab here at my work and they are going to give it several tests to see exactly how it acts and it pressure. Should have this one completed today as I know they are busy.One idea also is I noticed that the gt500 shift pedal has several welded gussets to support the pin/shaft that pushes the master cylinder on the clutch ours could be flexing and creating another bind. Other thoughts are I also believe the skip shift has something to do with this possibly between 1st and 2nd. Another not could be exactly what was just posted the spring pressure and centrifical force acting with eachother to screw things up. The only thing that still bothers me is the shift arm-one tube doing all the shifting I have to research how it connects inside the trans? I think the clutch spring, clutch assembly, and the transmission were all bad choices for this car's rpm range. It is such a bad link in the car I have to wonder what it would cost to go with the same setup as the gt500? I plan to find out the source or sources of the shifting problem so this could be fixed for good. So far I swear by removing the spring it definatly has changed my car alot as to shifting 2nd to 3rd to 4th and let me tell you when you do at rev limiter not letting off the gas at all the entire car twists so agressively and very impressive.
 
My clutch pedel hasn't hung in mid travel, sense I took that spring assembly off. Mine would hang up during the 2-3 and 3-4 shifts at redline. I have shifted as if I was at redline and the pedel never stuck. So I beleave there are 2 or 3 little things causing this problem. The spring is one of them, I also think either the clutch fluid line is to restrictive, or the pressure plate is to weak. With the spring not installed the other spring has the force to pull everything back to normal position. Well thats my thoughts on this problem.
 
I have changed the following items on my Boss relating to the shifting situation. The trans fluid to Redline Mtl, The brake clutch fluid to Motul 600, and I replaced the restricted line to the clutch, and had the MGW shifter changed out by George in Augusta, along with a test drive with him on the best way to shift his unit. The car appears to shift considerly better, or at least I am shifting it better. I can see some merit in removing the back up spring on the pedal assembly which I will do when I get back from a trip on Monday. The only other thing that I can think of is to change out the OEM motor mounts. Something in the back of my mind keeps telling me that under a heavy tourqe load at high RPM, the engine rocks on the mounts when shifting under high RPMs possibly causing everything to twist whether you power shift or just shift normally. Just a thought, but I will be changing them out also to stiffer mounts.
 
144
0
MA
Some very good points here from everyone.

Jeep- very interested in your results. Thanks for sharing all this info so far. I bought the clutch line but don't know where it goes under the firewall, and haven't sorted out installing it yet!

I'd like to try the spring deal first though. Sounds like valid theory and results.
 

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