Cooling for warmer climates / race cars

[MaxFord]

VP's Stay Frosty Racing fluid really works. It does NOT mix with any type of antifreeze or glycol and it's expensive. But it works.

 

[Fabman]

The good news is that the electric pump was roughly equivalent to the stock pump.
A difference of 5* is negligible especially since the nomex was removed from the radiator for the mechanical pump test.
Yes, it's spendy, but it is some free horsepower which may or may not be worth the price of admission depending on the preference of the buyer. Again the takeaway here is yes. An electric pump can work on a road race car.
Glad we were finally able to put that one to rest.

 

[blacksheep-1]

Ron Davis is your friend....
srsly, we ran the PWC car at Utah and had no issues whatsoever

 

[captdistraction]

On the electric pump: The other benefit was running it post race to continue cooling. What was missing though was the fan, I need to wire a trigger/override to engage it with key on engine off. I may add a dedicated coolant sensor and make my logger run a PDM output to it.

I'm not committed to either pump yet, but I'm still pouring through the data, assuming the water pump didn't have a higher maximum temperature, to your point it was pretty close based on the data we have.

The next steps (I posted this in several places and received some feedback):

The biggest concern is twofold: airflow through the cooler; since I have the whole assembly boxed, there's a pressure rise, and much of that pressure is behind the oil cooler, negating its ability to use convection. Its been recommended for me to box the area between the oil cooler and the radiator, or move them closer and seal the stack with foam.
Put back the plates I removed from the enclosure that boxed the inlet coming back up to the oil cooler front (for the lower opening)
Additionally, get the fan to come on sooner and use a 160F thermostat

Between the two revisions I hope to see improvement, and will test the car as soon as I can.

 

[Fabman]

On the electric pump: The other benefit was running it post race to continue cooling. What was missing though was the fan, I need to wire a trigger/override to engage it with key on engine off. I may add a dedicated coolant sensor and make my logger run a PDM output to it.

I'm not committed to either pump yet, but I'm still pouring through the data, assuming the water pump didn't have a higher maximum temperature, to your point it was pretty close based on the data we have.

The next steps (I posted this in several places and received some feedback):

The biggest concern is twofold: airflow through the cooler; since I have the whole assembly boxed, there's a pressure rise, and much of that pressure is behind the oil cooler, negating its ability to use convection. Its been recommended for me to box the area between the oil cooler and the radiator, or move them closer and seal the stack with foam.
Put back the plates I removed from the enclosure that boxed the inlet coming back up to the oil cooler front (for the lower opening)
Additionally, get the fan to come on sooner and use a 160F thermostat

Between the two revisions I hope to see improvement, and will test the car as soon as I can.

I have everything wired stand alone so that as long as the main battery switch is on I can bring anything i want into operation with or without the ignition switch on. I don't run a thermostat. I just start the motor and warm it up on the way out of the paddock or wherever with the water pump and intercooler pumps off. Same when I pull in. I shut the motor down and the fans/water pumps run until the temp is stable then I just shut everything down.
The only fly in the ointment is that you have to remember to turn the pumps on when you enter the track or water will shoot through your hood vents. Ask me how I know. lol.

 

[captdistraction]

that's why I want some thermostatic control. Some idiot forgot to turn on the transcooler all last weekend.

 

[Fabman]

that's why I want some thermostatic control. Some idiot forgot to turn on the transcooler all last weekend.

All my switches are in a row so that when I am ready to go they are all in the up position.
Makes it easier for me. But....you still gotta look. I did the water through the hood bit twice and after that i never forgot again.

 

[Fabman]

that's why I want some thermostatic control. Some idiot forgot to turn on the transcooler all last weekend.

Ideally I 'd like a warning light for everything to make sure nothing goes too far past normal without being switched on but that's a lot more wiring for me to get Kevin to do.

 

[JDee]

Also, maybe this Ford high flow water pump can help:

5.2L "GEN 2" WATER PUMP KIT

5.2L "GEN 2" WATER PUMP KIT|Ford Performance Parts

performanceparts.ford.com

But if the issue is your radiator doesn't have enough air flow thru it, it may not matter how fast the water is recirculated.

Interesting idea. 30% more water flow has to be good does it not? I read some comments on Summit Racings site saying this pump needs a new pulley or it will cause belt failure, but it doesn't come with a pulley.
Does anybody have any info on that?

 

[captdistraction]

That's interesting; it should include the pulley per FRPP (though track record on their parts lately has been very hit or miss) but I had not noticed a physical difference in that pulley; though the commenter's picture clearly shows an offset issue. So possible the pulley was revised on the new pump to be offset a bit further.

 

[Coz]

I have not heard any issues regarding the pulley other than it required a 4-bolt pulley. I have not seen any different Ford pulley made for this pump nor any aftermarket lightweight pulley that is specific for this pump. If there is only one comment I would take that with a grain of salt.

As far as more Flow being better - only if the rest of your cooling system can take advantage of it. See this thread for more info:

FP 5.0L and 5.2L Gen2 Water Pump with 30% increase in flow

5.2L "GEN 2" WATER PUMP KIT Retail: $210.00 https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-8501-M52APerformance water pump kit for 2011-2019 5.0L and 2015-2019 5.2L engines. Pump delivers 30% improvement in flow over standard pump. Kit is comprised of OEM components with minimum allowable...

trackmustangsonline.com

 

[JDee]

I have not heard any issues regarding the pulley other than it required a 4-bolt pulley. I have not seen any different Ford pulley made for this pump nor any aftermarket lightweight pulley that is specific for this pump. If there is only one comment I would take that with a grain of salt.

As far as more Flow being better - only if the rest of your cooling system can take advantage of it. See this thread for more info:

FP 5.0L and 5.2L Gen2 Water Pump with 30% increase in flow

5.2L "GEN 2" WATER PUMP KIT Retail: $210.00 https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-8501-M52APerformance water pump kit for 2011-2019 5.0L and 2015-2019 5.2L engines. Pump delivers 30% improvement in flow over standard pump. Kit is comprised of OEM components with minimum allowable...

trackmustangsonline.com

Yeah, it was just one. I don't really have a cooling issue since hood vent install, and now I've got 2 more in there, so likely not really going to make any difference.

 

[chicagobob]

Just 2 cents, hopefully you have already put this behind you.

The “hot” to “cold” temp drop of around 10F, is that what you expected? The Setrab 948 is huge oil cooler; the small Mishimoto oil cooler engineering report shows a 35F (cruising speeds) reduction https://cdn.mishimoto.com/media/productpdf/MMOC-MUS-11T_EngineeringReport.pdf. Using the Setrab calcs with the 948, even dead air equiv of 5mph Corr. Factor of 0.5 should >35F drop, with good airflow 2x drop similar to gww52’s 220-230F temps; two resources to get the calcs together http://www.mocal.co.uk/products-oilcoolers.html http://www.setrab.com/media/28769/Setrab-ProLine-STD-performance-graphs.pdf Are you sure the cold side gage/sensor is correct? If 10F is correct, then as you said there is not air flow thru it. As you mention, the possible issue is the 2” distance from the radiator mounted position resulting in getting positive pressure from the behind the oil cooler when driving or engine area stagnating the air flow. Since you didn’t mention a coolant issue, then there is airflow across the radiator into the engine bay so oil cooler airflow is the likely issue. Your ideas of either bringing a full box / seal back or closing the gap make sense as an easy trial to force flow and eliminate backpressure from the air sitting in front of the radiator. That oil cooler should be able to give better than a 10F change.

Sorry for the long answer, I have fought coolant temps similar to gww52 so have thought a lot about the oil and coolant air and improvements – still battling.

 

[chicagobob]

Ford M-8501-M52A: For my coolant temps, I am going to experiment with upgrading to the Ford M-8501-M52A water pump; went to Summit to order, but number no longer exists; CJ Pony accepted the order and cancelled due to no delivery time from Ford. Leo at Capaldi Racing in Michigan tracked down the issue and he said that Ford pulled all the inventory since the belt pulley on the 5.0L apps didn’t line up quite right. Ford is working on a fix and expect it available in a few weeks. Will drop a note once I get an actual part with the updated pulley.

Coolant temps continue to be my challenge, since the 660 cooler covers a big portion of the radiator, the oil cooler and radiator are hot air coupled as the temps rose; the coolant temps would not start dropping until after the oil started coming down. Recently boxed the oil cooler to separate the airflows; now a short shift lap will bring the coolant temps down; improvement, but still battling.

Set-up: 2012 Mustang GT, Setrab 660 oil cooler, thermostatic Setrab sandwich plate, temp gauge on inlet to the oil cooler (no outlet temps), Tracspec hood vents, Ford 302S radiator & high performance fan, SCT 93 tune, ~50/50 coolant with run wetter, open mesh grill, Boss 302 lower valence/splitter. The 660 is mounted in front of the air conditioner condenser about 3/8” gap and is “boxed” on all fours sides.

Yes, for you hardcore folks, I could probably fix the issue if pulled the air conditioning, but the goal is a street capable track robust.

 

[blacksheep-1]

Ron Davis is your friend, even my Phoenix built , little V6 turdhopper has a Ron Davis in it.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Heck, I am afraid to change anything , as distilled water, 2 bottles of Water Wetter, and the Chicane 23 hood and the Boss just has never run hot. Will echo BS1's comment on Ron Davis if someone needs his radiators or other stuff since I do have a few friends who swear by his products also.

 

[Grant 302]

Ron Davis is your friend

^That. And it looks like it’s been mentioned several times but ignored.

Or Fluidyne has some good options like they used in the CVR school cars, and guys like cloud9 put in. Race car?...that’s the way I’d go. 302-Hx IIRC, with the integrated oil/water cooler in the lower hose side.

 

[Grant 302]

that's why I want some thermostatic control. Some idiot forgot to turn on the transcooler all last weekend.

Manual bypass on the factory system. Best way.

 

[captdistraction]

What S197 came with a factory transmission cooling system when equipped with a manual? I might have missed that boat.

The radiator note was received and not ignored, however the radiator was not the cause of my issues (this car is equipped with a fluidyne piece as very clearly stated in the first post). This one is solved, the car now cools appropriately in even hot temperatures; the fix was discovered and implemented outside this post.

 

[xr7]

What S197 came with a factory transmission cooling system when equipped with a manual? I might have missed that boat.

The radiator note was received and not ignored, however the radiator was not the cause of my issues (this car is equipped with a fluidyne piece as very clearly stated in the first post). This one is solved, the car now cools appropriately in even hot temperatures; the fix was discovered and implemented outside this post.

Captain, what was the fix?