Do I want 4 or 6 piston brembo?

[Duane Black]

I'm finally ready for real brakes! I've been running sliding calipers with good pads and 3 inch ducting for a couple years and was simply looking at moving up to 4 piston brembo, then I realized that the 6 pot is a thing I can do.

I dont think stopping power is an issue even on the 2 piston for me. I have no aero, nor do I have slicks, and I'd say theres a 20-ish% chance I ever add one of those things to the car. I ran for nearly 3 years on 220tw tires, and the past 17 months have been on 200tw hankook. I may try running Toyo RR take offs one day

So, with this in mind, I've priced both. I've made my own pro/con list.

4 piston
1) lighter!!
2) cheaper!!
3) more wheel options available in the future
4) easier parts ordering - everything is s197 parts, dont have to keep track of what's what and where on the car
5) still miles better than the 2 piston
6) I know the pedal should feel good

For 6 pistons...

1) I demand the best suddenly after 4 years of getting by on a sliding caliper?
2) spend another $90 on brake hoses
3) with brake hoses, it would cost me about $200 more to put this system on my car vs the brembo, but race pads change things. Vs a brembo setup, my favorite pads cost $130 more for this setup. It might drive me back into DTC70 territory honestly.
4) rotor prices are pretty similar on rock auto, shipping weight will certainly prefer 4 piston though. which speaking of...
5) I figure this system would add 28 lbs to the front of my car, whereas the 4 piston brembo would be adding about 10? Is it worth its weight?
6) will I like how this changes the pedal travel on my car? It's got to be better than a sliding caliper. But will I be one of those guys who hates the pedal feel?

Bearing in mind I'm a v6 weighing 3441 without me in it, probably max weight around 3750 with a full tank of gas and me in it. The highest speed I've ever achieved was 144.6 at Daytona on the front stretch. otherwise, I hit 133 at VIR, 135 at Charlotte, 130 at Road Atlanta, 125 at Roebling, 110 at CMP, 122 at Sebring...



You get the idea I guess. I watched Vorshlags video claiming 90% of owners would be fine with the 4 piston brembo, and I see he and I are running s197 at similar weight. However, he had aero, slicks, and more power. I still see a 20% chance I move beyond 200tw and I doubt that move would go all the way to Hoosiers. If I did make such a move, it would be 2021 or later and I dont know if I'll even run the car beyond, say, 2023.

You guys have blown smoke at me and made me think I'm a good driver, so am I that 10% who would be served by the 6 pot if I can get in for that much money? $300-400 more might not be much in muscrat racer money, but as a high school teacher on said teacher salary, kets just say that's $3-400 that can do a bit elsewhere in life.

But that's really all I got. I was posting in that pinned post and read it a couple times, but why keep blowing it up with my own thoughts and cars? Kudos to those who realized this possibility.

Closing thoughts... if I had never learned of the 6 piston upgrade at this rate, I could have lived a happy life on 4 piston brakes I'm sure. But, now that I know 6 pistons are an option, will i ever be happy knowing i could have had better? Will I max out my system and wish I had gone higher yet? Or would spending that extra money make me wish I had my money back, the weight off my nose, and wish I hadn't overkilled the car?

 

[Coz]

put this system on my car vs the brembo, but race pads change things. Vs a brembo setup, my favorite pads cost $130 more for this setup.

I believe you're referring to the S550 PP 6-pots with the 13-14 GT500 15" Rotors. These are also Brembos and the pads are cheaper than the smaller S197 6-pot Brembos that were on the 13-14 GT500s. They are also available in more compounds.

If you've been running with the sliding calipers for 4+ years and if you have budgetary constraints, which I assume means no power adders in the future, then just go with the 4-pots and be happy. Despite knowing there are 2014s with V8s in them, you're happy with your V6. This is probably not much different.

With some of the money you save, buy a set of titanium shims.

Either way, you will also have a wider availability of pad compounds. For example, I don't believe that Pagid even offers any of their pads in the FMSI 1463 pad shape of your current sliding calipers.

 

[Duane Black]

I was referring to s550 6 pistons, that's correct. I dont see a power or v8 upgrade in the future. Any upgrade I make will likely be a downgrade on the eyes of this forum. I'd probably get a Miata or a BRZ.

 

[Duane Black]

I understand there's a lot of Pagid fanboys here, I've been a Raybestos ST43 fan boy for quite some time, but may move to the ST47 which is like $270 for a front set on my car if I go with the Brembo, the R1001.15 backing plate I believe it said on Porterfield's site.

 

[Coz]

I've been a Raybestos ST43 fan boy for quite some time,

Do you swap to street pads when not tracking it or do you run the ST43s on the street? If so, how is their effectiveness when cold? And how bad is the brake dust on the street?

 

[Duane Black]

I always swap, I may drive to an event on the race pads though. When I drive on the street on race pads, I'm quite shocked by how soft my pedal feels. The correlation between what my foot is doing and what my body is doing is quite different than what I might be accustomed to, but kind of in a good way. My foot feels like it isn't doing much of anything, but the car is stopping. Their behavior changes quite a bit if you end up in stop and go traffic. They dust a good bit, but can't really say my wheels are worse off for it since they seem to clean up.

 

[Coz]

What pads do you run on the street and is their pad material compatible with the ST43s. Or do you swap rotors or scuff them up to prep them?

 

[Duane Black]

Raybestos seems to claim their pads don't really need a bedding. I've swapped rotors after breaking one at track and gone out without bedding and just take it easy a few laps, no issue. I usually just re-bed whenever I put new rotors in. Sometimes I swap the rotor. I'm not too scientific about it all.

 

[Coz]

Thanks. Do you use Raybestos street pads? If not, what type?

 

[Duane Black]

I run Hawk HPS right now. Honestly for hte street, I run whatever I cna find on sale on TireRack.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I dont think stopping power is an issue even on the 2 piston for me. I have no aero, nor do I have slicks, and I'd say theres a 20-ish% chance I ever add one of those things to the car. I ran for nearly 3 years on 220tw tires, and the past 17 months have been on 200tw hankook. I may try running Toyo RR take offs one day

You get the idea I guess. I watched Vorshlags video claiming 90% of owners would be fine with the 4 piston brembo, and I see he and I are running s197 at similar weight. However, he had aero, slicks, and more power.

You guys have blown smoke at me and made me think I'm a good driver, so am I that 10% who would be served by the 6 pot

1. You don't yet feel limited by the 2-piston calipers.

2. Terry's 10% is where time trialing and wheel-to-wheel competition driving lives. Plus perhaps the faster advanced HPDE drivers and instructors.

3. Terry had way more power in his red S197, and is known to be extremely hard on brakes. I think he once almost set some pads on fire at an autocross.

You should be packaging weight and speed together, meaning weight and power. Similar weight basically takes weight out of your comparison, leaving only power, and I suspect that assuming heat generated to be slightly less than a linear function of available power would be a close enough approximation for this discussion at this point. So 450-ish for Terry and 300-ish, maybe 350-ish for your car . . . 70% - 80% of Terry's amount of heat on the stops from your highest speeds, with more cool-down time in between.

Just moving up to the 14" SVT/GT500 setup ought to make a noticeable difference in the color of the fluid that you should be bleeding out prior to each event. Part of that may be due to the replacement of the brake hoses, but it'll still be an indication of lowered caliper temperatures.


Norm

 

[Duane Black]

Well I am a DE4 level instructor flirting with the idea of running TT4....

 

[stevbd]

Duane, just from reading your posts I get the sense you'd really enjoy the peace of mind that comes with knowing you have the biggest possible brakes. And conversely I think you'd always have that nagging doubt if you go with the 14". I have the 14" with the GT500 rears and don't feel a need to upgrade at this time. But where you are upgrading anyhow, it's not much more $$, and the 6 piston s550 is a proven good setup.... I say why not, go for it.

Also, at least to me 135-145 is really moving right along. I think I'd appreciate the extra thermal capacity at those kinds of speeds. I can't believe you were doing that on the puny sliding calipers! On our local tracks I only top out around 120-ish.

Good luck!

 

[stevbd]

By the way, it's a little confusing when you say in your OP that stopping power has never been an issue on your stock brakes. I assume you're referring to stopping distances and not fade? If you've never faded the stock brakes at all, then yes, the 6 piston 15" may be overkill. But whatever, too much brakes doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.

 

[Duane Black]

It can always engage abs when right, but fade, pad wear, heat eating up the dustboots.. those are the issues

 

[Duane Black]

How long should rotors last before stress cracking or wearing out? Mine usually go 2-3 events. I do still have this gem from May at VIR..



How long can you guys make 1 pieces last?

 

[Coz]

Mine (14") have lasted for two seasons. About 3 track days (4-6 20 min sessions) and 3 Track Nights each season. And about 5k street miles each year.

I'm wondering if yours crack because the sliding calipers may be causing the rotors to heat up more on one side (piston side) of the rotor than the other.

It might be interesting to get that thermal paint and put it on the edge of the rotors and see if the colors on one edge changes more than the other edge.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecId=4974

 

[Coz]

What brand of rotors are you using?

 

[Duane Black]

I've used Centric, Wagner, Raybestos, Duralast...

 

[Coz]

And they all crack like that?

Is your brake duct directing the air into the hub of the rotor or directly on the face of the rotor?

If it's the latter then it's possible that it's the opposite of what I said earlier. The cracking could be from one side of the rotor being much cooler than the other.