Do you have proper track etiquette???

[BROCKgoFAST]

At my last even I saw a lot of things that definitely weren't proper so wanted to make this video and see if you have run into these situations

 

[blacksheep-1]

All drivers should be kart racers first, that cuts out all the stupid by the time you are 10 years old.

 

[TMSBOSS]

Did I miss the Point By??

 

[mwjscn]

This is the reason you wait for physical point-bys. The driver can accidentally knock the directional stalk, but you can't accidentally put an arm out a window. It's likely that he wasn't intentionally drag racing you, you were just up in his blind spot so he probably didn't even have mirror-awareness of your vehicle until he went to turn in on the corner.

 

[mikeD4V]

Drive with a safety focused organization. Speak with event organizers and/or the other driver about on track activity that is not identified and corrected by the corner stations.

If you're faster than the other car, don't force him into making a mistake. If the car you're pressing is dancing around, he's watching you in his mirrors and doesn't have his eyes up; back off a bit. If he wrecks, he's probably not coming back to the track and that's a loss for our community as a whole. Your session may also get red flagged if he wrecks.

You appear more confident that the other drivers in your run group. Let the other guy get comfortable enough for you to go through. Both drivers are responsible for managing a pass. Try a trigger word when you see red or hot pit and let the track workers find a gap for you to play in.

If you're faster than the other drivers in the run group, ask for a check ride up. The drivers in more advanced run groups are generally better at managing traffic.

 

[BROCKgoFAST]

Drive with a safety focused organization. Speak with event organizers and/or the other driver about on track activity that is not identified and corrected by the corner stations.

If you're faster than the other car, don't force him into making a mistake. If the car you're pressing is dancing around, he's watching you in his mirrors and doesn't have his eyes up; back off a bit. If he wrecks, he's probably not coming back to the track and that's a loss for our community as a whole. Your session may also get red flagged if he wrecks.

You appear more confident that the other drivers in your run group. Let the other guy get comfortable enough for you to go through. Both drivers are responsible for managing a pass. Try a trigger word when you see red or hot pit and let the track workers find a gap for you to play in.

If you're faster than the other drivers in the run group, ask for a check ride up. The drivers in more advanced run groups are generally better at managing traffic.

I never get aggressive with other drivers and always give them space especially in this situation. He was in the SOLO run group with us and was way out of his comfort and the org stepped him back down into DE. Some drivers are taught to do signals instead of hands to make sure both hands are on the wheel. I believe everyone in Europe does this technique and what he was doing. He did this with a car that passed him before I got there. The whole thing made for a bad situation, he moved over, gave me the pass by and was full throttle the whole time into Bishops which is not the safest 2 car turn

 

[BROCKgoFAST]

Did I miss the Point By??

He did his turn signal. THere a lot of organizations that are starting to have drivers do this instead of point by, its a Euro thing for sure but i dont like it. Give me the finger!!

 

[Dave_W]

So I'm mostly an autocrosser, and only did a few HDPE with passing on certain straights only with point-bys. But what's up with the several people trying to pass on the outside at the exit of a turn? If the driver ahead thinks they're driving hard (even if they aren't) won't they think they need to use the whole track-out on exit? Why put your nose there, especially if the driver you're passing seems to be mirror-blind? Why not go for the classic over-under and pass them on the inside of the exit? Maybe I'm being too critical.

 

[BROCKgoFAST]

So I'm mostly an autocrosser, and only did a few HDPE with passing on certain straights only with point-bys. But what's up with the several people trying to pass on the outside at the exit of a turn? If the driver ahead thinks they're driving hard (even if they aren't) won't they think they need to use the whole track-out on exit? Why put your nose there, especially if the driver you're passing seems to be mirror-blind? Why not go for the classic over-under and pass them on the inside of the exit? Maybe I'm being too critical.

You go where the driver ahead of you gives the point by. You don’t want to scare the person in front of you and go where they feel most comfortable. He did the right thing by getting off line to point by and let me pass only he drag raced me down the straight instead.

 

[Dave_W]

Sorry, I wasn't talking about you, as much as the S2k/Vette and white econobox clips - I watched the whole vid.

 

[BROCKgoFAST]

Sorry, I wasn't talking about you, as much as the S2k/Vette and white econobox clips - I watched the whole vid.

Oh gotcha! The S2K and Vette we’re running in the HPDE 4 group which there is no point by’s

 

[TMSBOSS]

TMSBOSS said:
Did I miss the Point By??

"He did his turn signal. THere a lot of organizations that are starting to have drivers do this instead of point by, its a Euro thing for sure but i don't like it. Give me the finger!!"

What was briefed in that days drivers meeting??

 

[bob]

I'm not good at critiquing video. I have seen dome pretty bad stuff that looked like someone turned down on another driver only to see the data proof that there was zero steering angle. So I always take what I see in video with a grain of salt. Maybe these issues were worse that I think but they look pretty meh to me.

hate the whining. Guys think they are fast and whine about the guys ahead of them,. We have this group in SoCal that does download meetings after the session. In the fastest group with theoretically the best drivers they are the biggest whiners. They whine about stuff in this video. In this socal group they have 2 open passing groups. One is less experienced. I'll run the less experienced group because there are fewer whiners there and the download meeting is therefore shorter. In the higher open passing group some guy always likes to hear his voice. It is quite tiring. OK rant off on that.

To be honest I'm not impressed with the following guys in the video either. If I had to say 2 things about the "upset followers" it would be lack of commitment and failure to present one's self. They are not doing what they can do to execute their passes cleanly and decisively. Wallowing in the pity of less horsepower is unbecoming.

Sorry to be the uncharitable A hole but track driving is a 2 way street. We are responsible for each other. I say teach the guy don't flip off the guy. When you run off other track drivers you lessen your sport. We need more drivers not less. If you are the driver who makes a mountain out of a molehill and the other driver gets put down maybe he does not come back and your fees go up. Just about any track in the country you can rent the place out yourself and have it all to yourself. It just cost money. You want cheap trackdays you have to learn to share the track with everyone.

Each of those events in the video could be mitigated without resorting to frustration. I see minor inconvenience on the video. The comment by the white mustang? having to hit the brakes and jumping the curb? I'm thinking are you kidding me? Well you see there is always another level above where you are. That's why whinning is more likely to just showcase your own lack of knowledge or lack of ability. We don't try to, but often put 4 wheels in the dirt and keep racing. Jumping curbs in clubracing is the rule rather than the exception. If you are referrencing HPDE4, can I guess that's NASA? Did you know in NASA racing that leaving enough racing room is 3/4 of a car width I believe? So the next level right above HPDE4 NASA racing is going to put the next level squeeze on you. I only race SCCA so not 100% sure on that nasa racing room rule but I'm pretty darn sure. All I'm saying is to someone else that whine seems insignificant. Learn and move on.

IMO giving that car a wide berth to" not scare them" makes you less predictable and invites his infraction. You want to make your intention known even if you get the pointby. The pointby means he has seen you. Get up in his a$$ present yourself break out to the direction you want to go and be close to his door so 100 decibles of exhaust is screaming in his ear putting him on notice you are coming through. Saying close to his door gives you room to control the track and have a place to escape. Your "not scaring", sneak up on him passing gives you zero control. You gave too much room. Control the room instead. You don't want to rely on him to keep you safe. If you are the advanced guy don't do that trying to be courteous or nice. Finally, if you do have contact there is less damage if you hit from closer together than farther apart. Think if you get hit in the head with a baseball bat that is bunted into your head vs. swung at your head. Again sorry for being the A hole.

 

[JDee]

With the lapping groups I run with the rule on passing is clear and reviewed every track day in the drivers meeting. Quite simple, really.

This is NOT racing, it is lapping. When a faster car catches you, point him by at your 1st opportunity and don't drag race him down the next straight. How people cannot digest that simple rule is beyond me. And yet very often it is ignored. Pride or stupidity, I can never tell.

With a stock motor car I make most of my speed in corners, so I suffer the "fast like hell up the straights, slow like a turd in the corners" crowd continually and it is frustrating as hell. Point me by, give me the next straight and you'll never see me again. But that seems to be too much to expect from some people.

Next year going to try running with the Open race car group and see if that improves anything. I'm in the fastest 5% of lap times so I think it will be a better fit. I know how to use my mirrors and how to stick my arm out the window and I work hard at getting faster guys past me ASAP. Is it too much to expect the same in return? Apparently it is.

 

[BROCKgoFAST]

With the lapping groups I run with the rule on passing is clear and reviewed every track day in the drivers meeting. Quite simple, really.

This is NOT racing, it is lapping. When a faster car catches you, point him by at your 1st opportunity and don't drag race him down the next straight. How people cannot digest that simple rule is beyond me. And yet very often it is ignored. Pride or stupidity, I can never tell.

With a stock motor car I make most of my speed in corners, so I suffer the "fast like hell up the straights, slow like a turd in the corners" crowd continually and it is frustrating as hell. Point me by, give me the next straight and you'll never see me again. But that seems to be too much to expect from some people.

Next year going to try running with the Open race car group and see if that improves anything. I'm in the fastest 5% of lap times so I think it will be a better fit. I know how to use my mirrors and how to stick my arm out the window and I work hard at getting faster guys past me ASAP. Is it too much to expect the same in return? Apparently it is.

Totally agree, its just common practice in the groups that are run. I was out with a new Mustang GT on Pirelli Slicks and i could pull away in the straights but i knew he was a rocket ship in the corners so when i saw him coming I already knew to give him the point for the next corner so he knew where to go. It made my event more fun and his. Most groups are out there to have fun and get better at driving and not out there racing in HPDE or SOLO groups

 

[BROCKgoFAST]

I'm not good at critiquing video. I have seen dome pretty bad stuff that looked like someone turned down on another driver only to see the data proof that there was zero steering angle. So I always take what I see in video with a grain of salt. Maybe these issues were worse that I think but they look pretty meh to me.

hate the whining. Guys think they are fast and whine about the guys ahead of them,. We have this group in SoCal that does download meetings after the session. In the fastest group with theoretically the best drivers they are the biggest whiners. They whine about stuff in this video. In this socal group they have 2 open passing groups. One is less experienced. I'll run the less experienced group because there are fewer whiners there and the download meeting is therefore shorter. In the higher open passing group some guy always likes to hear his voice. It is quite tiring. OK rant off on that.

To be honest I'm not impressed with the following guys in the video either. If I had to say 2 things about the "upset followers" it would be lack of commitment and failure to present one's self. They are not doing what they can do to execute their passes cleanly and decisively. Wallowing in the pity of less horsepower is unbecoming.

Sorry to be the uncharitable A hole but track driving is a 2 way street. We are responsible for each other. I say teach the guy don't flip off the guy. When you run off other track drivers you lessen your sport. We need more drivers not less. If you are the driver who makes a mountain out of a molehill and the other driver gets put down maybe he does not come back and your fees go up. Just about any track in the country you can rent the place out yourself and have it all to yourself. It just cost money. You want cheap trackdays you have to learn to share the track with everyone.

Each of those events in the video could be mitigated without resorting to frustration. I see minor inconvenience on the video. The comment by the white mustang? having to hit the brakes and jumping the curb? I'm thinking are you kidding me? Well you see there is always another level above where you are. That's why whinning is more likely to just showcase your own lack of knowledge or lack of ability. We don't try to, but often put 4 wheels in the dirt and keep racing. Jumping curbs in clubracing is the rule rather than the exception. If you are referrencing HPDE4, can I guess that's NASA? Did you know in NASA racing that leaving enough racing room is 3/4 of a car width I believe? So the next level right above HPDE4 NASA racing is going to put the next level squeeze on you. I only race SCCA so not 100% sure on that nasa racing room rule but I'm pretty darn sure. All I'm saying is to someone else that whine seems insignificant. Learn and move on.

IMO giving that car a wide berth to" not scare them" makes you less predictable and invites his infraction. You want to make your intention known even if you get the pointby. The pointby means he has seen you. Get up in his a$$ present yourself break out to the direction you want to go and be close to his door so 100 decibles of exhaust is screaming in his ear putting him on notice you are coming through. Saying close to his door gives you room to control the track and have a place to escape. Your "not scaring", sneak up on him passing gives you zero control. You gave too much room. Control the room instead. You don't want to rely on him to keep you safe. If you are the advanced guy don't do that trying to be courteous or nice. Finally, if you do have contact there is less damage if you hit from closer together than farther apart. Think if you get hit in the head with a baseball bat that is bunted into your head vs. swung at your head. Again sorry for being the A hole.

I think thats the entire point of the video. If you are talking racing then yeah stick your nose up there a$$ and give them a little room but this is HPDE and SOLO run groups with point by rules and rules in place to make sure everyone has a safe and fun time. IF you follow the rules and know your track etiquette you wont run into these issues.

I am the guy in the white mustang and if you have ever been to Sebring you will understand that Bishops is not a corner to go 2 wide and put someone out of line because the results can be catastrophic and almost not possible at 110mph to get pinched and totally miss the apex to get in the marbles and just go into the wall so when i was drag raced all the way into the rumble strip and pinched into the corner causing me to get hard on the brakes only to look over and he did the same thing. This is why i was paying attention to the car and driver while i was catching him and the car/driver was a little off line and a little all over the place i wasn't taking a chance.

 

[stevbd]

You go where the driver ahead of you gives the point by. You don’t want to scare the person in front of you and go where they feel most comfortable. He did the right thing by getting off line to point by and let me pass only he drag raced me down the straight instead.

I'm not joe racer and maybe it's a different rule depending on the track or organization.... but in all the solo groups I've run with they always ask during the driver meeting that whoever is giving the point stay on line. Usually it works best if the passing car goes to the inside coming off the apex. If a dummy points you by to the inside coming into the corner, just take the inside spot and slow as much as you need to make the corner. Let the person who pointed you by brake early to avoid you. Don't feel the need to race them to the apex and create the situation where you can't make the turn and they then are braking at the worst point to avoid you. In my experience this rule that the car getting passed stays on line isn't set in stone but generally it makes everything smoother and avoids the situation like in the video where you have two cars acting like a couple squirrels in the road. Obviously for all this to work the car giving the point usually has to slow.

The other thing I think people need to learn is that you really need to let off a lot after giving the point, even if you are pointing by a powerful car. People look at a gt350r for example and just assume it's going to smoke them down the straight. To an extent that is true but at 90 mph coming off a corner, it takes a while to get by a slower car even if you have all that power.

 

[PatrickStapler]

With JTI, they encourage point by in all classes. I don't think they necessarily acheive that in the faster run groups, but I'm not there. To the other point, they heavily encourage the pointer to reduce to at least 3/4 throttle if you give a point by...regardless of the power level of the appointee. Hell I drop to 50% throttle when I point by a Miata. They eat my lunch in the corners.

 

[bob]

I am the guy in the white mustang and if you have ever been to Sebring you will understand that Bishops is not a corner to go 2 wide and put someone out of line because the results can be catastrophic and almost not possible at 110mph to get pinched and totally miss the apex to get in the marbles and just go into the wall so when i was drag raced all the way into the rumble strip and pinched into the corner causing me to get hard on the brakes only to look over and he did the same thing. This is why i was paying attention to the car and driver while i was catching him and the car/driver was a little off line and a little all over the place i wasn't taking a chance.

You have 2 choices to either cycle through the hot pits or pass. You got a point but do not need to pass. If you don't want to pass at that time you don't present yourself. If you are going to make the pass then you have to be predicatable and present yourself then pass with authority so that you are predicatable. If the "all over the place" guy is scary you either wait for a straight present yourself and wait for point or you control the tarmac with car position to ensure the safety of both of you. Passer has responsibility for making a safe pass always and everywhere. You can't expect help from other drivers and doing so invites an incident.

I do not know you nor Sebring well being based in Cali. I have only raced Sebring a half dozen times and what I remember is there is room everywhere for 2 and 3 cars wide. Sometimes we get tunnel vision and fail to get our eyes up. Often trackday guys see the time trial line and forget about the rest of the track. Racers see the TT line more periferally as they scan other parts of the track for an advantage. Because when fighting you are all over the place including in the dirt. That section of track is easy 2 wide and where you pass the black car 3 wide. If you can pass thim there as you did it's 2 wide.

Most groups are out there to have fun and get better at driving and not out there racing in HPDE or SOLO groups

Yes and in amateur racing we are out for fun too. It is just a different game racing vs. TT vs. trackday but concepts are the same.

Next year going to try running with the Open race car group and see if that improves anything. I'm in the fastest 5% of lap times so I think it will be a better fit. I know how to use my mirrors and how to stick my arm out the window and I work hard at getting faster guys past me ASAP. Is it too much to expect the same in return? Apparently it is.

I don't think that will improve anything except the frustration will happen at faster speed. I see fast guys come up to a slow guy then try to outpower to get past. The other guy will hit the throttle and that equals frustration. I know it is HPDE but work on racecraft or HPDE craft if you will. Take for example the video above of the S2000 getting balked by the vette. The S2k needs help to get by and the vette to lay off the throttle. But instead look at the massive difference in closing speed and corner speed of the S2k. If the S2k would have kept his line and on throttle at the 1st catch up turn he would be ahead of the vette on the straight because the vette guy was slow in corners. The vette would have gassed it and parraleled the S2k to the next corner entry of the next turn where the S2k has control of the corner being inside on the apex. In other words the vette has to back off and the video shows the vette backing off anyway without any pressure from the S2k because he is lame then the S2k having to back off to avoid rear contact to the vette. The S2k could have basically taken control with zero fanfare. That's the kind of stuff we all need to learn and it is a lot easier to learn when you are the faster guy in a lower run group before you move up to the next group.

I'm not joe racer and maybe it's a different rule depending on the track or organization.... but in all the solo groups I've run with they always ask during the driver meeting that whoever is giving the point stay on line.

You are on the right track. All clubs anywhere and everywhere drivers need to driver their line which is preferably the fast line time trial line. Faster cars will figure out how to get around the slow car if they are faster drivers. This keeps everyone safe. All cars need to drive predictably. The passer has the responsibility to pass safely.

 

[TrackAire]

Interesting discussion.

Looking at the first clip with the Subaru....the driver just plains sucks as a driver. He essentially never really hits a correct apex so he is too busy trying to keep his car on track to notice the traffic behind him. He essentially needs a real driving school to actually learn how to drive fast. Until then he's too busy trying to figure out how to not spin out but he thinks he's "fast".

In the second clip, what the heck is up with the S2k driver?....why is he shaking his hand at the orange Corvette when he made a clean pass on the straight at 5:05 of the video? I seriously think the Vette driver was then just being a dick and going slow in the corners to piss off the S2k driver. But the S2k driver had multiple opportunities to pass the orange Vette. If he had spent less time shaking his hands and flipping people off, he might have been successful. And really, who flips off another driver after the first botched pass at 5:29? If you don't think the orange Vette was screwing with him, look at the passenger door side mirror on the S2k at the beginning of the clip and you'll see it's full of orange Vette. So obviously the Vette is running faster laps than the S2k and was fast enough to catch the S2k but was painfully slow once ahead of him....not a chance unless it was on purpose. I bet other crap happened in previous laps between these two.
This guy shakes his fists and yells inside his helmet more than a Italian Formula One driver. My takeaway is the S2k driver should probably go to anger management classes.

I don't care if I get caught by a McLaren or a Miata....if that driver catches me they are probably 5 to 10 seconds a lap faster than me. It is rare that I don't point them by in the first or second corner once they catch up. Anything more than that and I should be in the beginners group.

I prefer to run the open classes but if they fill before I get signed up, I end up in the point by groups. 9 out of 10 times the clubs I run with there is never an issue and people are looking in their mirrors and there is little to no frustration. The only real issues occur if there is a train of cars.....at that point I just make a drive through the hot pits to let them get way ahead of me.