S550 Does more power = more heat?

[bronco100]

I've done some bolt on modifications to my car (exhaust, intake, intercooler, etc) and am wanting to get a tune to start taking advantage of those to make more power.

However, in my limited understanding of how engines work, this additional power would surely generate more heat, right?

I already have to do a cooldown lap after every fast lap, which is fine for time attack purposes. Would this additional power be essentially useless until I can further upgrade the cooling? Could it even be detrimental, by making the car get too hot before I can even complete one lap?

Or does it not make that much difference, proportionally? Like if I make 15% more power, do things get hot 15% quicker? Should I keep things "safe" and focus on cooling before I get the tune?

 

[Stangra]

More power will absolutely make more heat... everywhere... from the turbo to the differential and in between. Brakes too. In a boosted engine the higher IATs when pushing hard and repeatedly may result in heat soak, causing your engine to detune itself for self preservation.
You mentioned an intercooler mod, that may help this.
In my supercharged coyote I had to extensively modify the entire intercooler system to get meaningful recovery times on the track.
See the Department of Boost website for a wealth of information on this. They're all about superchargers, but boost is boost.

E85 may be your friend, runs a little cooler and performs like race gas for a fraction of the cost. Noticeable power gain in a boosted application.

If pushing hard on the track with added power your transmission and differential will beg for cooling too.
I don't know how well the EcoBoost manages heat but the cooling system will have an added demand.

 

[bronco100]

I don't know how well the EcoBoost manages heat

It doesn't. I definitely plan on doing E85 after this season to help with that.

I guess I wanted to get it tuned because I've heard that's necessary when you're running a catless downpipe. I don't know if that's true or not. But if it is I wonder if I could just have my tuner keep the power the same (or even detune it) so that it does not get too hot.

 

[Stangra]

It doesn't. I definitely plan on doing E85 after this season to help with that.

I guess I wanted to get it tuned because I've heard that's necessary when you're running a catless downpipe. I don't know if that's true or not. But if it is I wonder if I could just have my tuner keep the power the same (or even detune it) so that it does not get too hot.

You most likely need a new tune and your tuner should be able to do that.
Why do the mod for the same or less power though?

 

[bronco100]

You most likely need a new tune

Yeah but I wish I knew for sure.

Why do the mod for the same or less power though?

Because I'm going to make more power eventually. So I'd prefer to install the mods ahead of time and then at any time I can basically turn up the power. At the moment, I'm not just limited by cooling, I also can only make about 20 more hp before I would get moved to a faster class. So the amount of power I have now is fine.

 

[Scootsmcgreggor]

Bigger IC if you don’t already have one, a big oil cooler, and ducted radiator and IC, and you’ll be good to go. When my car was Ecoboost, CHT’s would drop on long straights after I ducted the rad and IC.

As to your question: yes. ICE engines only convert ~1/3 of the power in the fuel they burn as horsepower. Much of the rest is turned to heat. So more power always equals more heat within the same engine architecture.

 

[bronco100]

Bigger IC if you don’t already have one, a big oil cooler, and ducted radiator and IC, and you’ll be good to go. When my car was Ecoboost, CHT’s would drop on long straights after I ducted the rad and IC.

As to your question: yes. ICE engines only convert ~1/3 of the power in the fuel they burn as horsepower. Much of the rest is turned to heat. So more power always equals more heat within the same engine architecture.

Yeah I have a bigger IC but need some ducting for sure. How did you go about fabricating that with your Ecoboost?

 

[Scootsmcgreggor]

I ducted my IC from the lower bumper grille and the radiator from the upper. Used Home Depot sheet aluminum. Super thin gauge but worked.

 

[Stangra]

Yeah I have a bigger IC but need some ducting for sure. How did you go about fabricating that with your Ecoboost?

Hood vents would be a helpful addition too. Great combination to force cold air to your coolers from the front/draw hot air out from behind.

 

[blacksheep-1]

You may want to talk to @Fabman about running Alky. He's been through this.
Those ecoboost cars made enough HP that they were heavily penalized in the SCCA T4 class because they won the Runoffs 2 years in a row. Those cars are no joke.

 

[bronco100]

You may want to talk to @Fabman about running Alky. He's been through this.
Those ecoboost cars made enough HP that they were heavily penalized in the SCCA T4 class because they won the Runoffs 2 years in a row. Those cars are no joke.

I really ought to run mine in autocross.. would be much easier on the cooling system at least, and I wouldn't have to worry about running out of top end speed. Only downside is getting like 5 minutes of seat time per event.

 

[Stangra]

You most likely need a new tune...

Yeah but I wish I knew for sure.

I'd get a tune, not worth the risk of finding out the hard way that it was needed.
If you've got an SCT or similar device you can get a few different tunes and alternate for different circumstances for a fraction more than a single tune: E85, Gas, Race, Street, etc.

 

[bronco100]

I'd get a tune, not worth the risk of finding out the hard way that it was needed.
If you've got an SCT or similar device you can get a few different tunes appropriate for different circumstances for a fraction more than a single tune: E85, Gas, Race, Street, etc.

HPTuners - no OTS stuff I'm getting a custom tune. Mostly so I can get rid of the annoying rev hang!

 

[Stangra]

I had Shaun at AED do my custom dyno tunes, on SCT. HP Tuners is a great solution too.

 

[Fabman]

e85 loves boost.
It allows you to run much more boost and timing.
On my boosted stroker 3 valve the difference between pump e85 and 91 octane was 100 hp and 100 pounds of torque.
On my N/A Coyote its only worth about 12 hp but I still run it because:
a) the cost
b) it runs so much cooler.
To me its just a no brainer, especially on a boosted car.

 

[Dave_W]

I seem to remember an Engine Masters episode where they were looking at TBI (or carb) vs port injection, and one of the things they found was the TBI had lower intake temp in the runners because the fuel being put into the airstream earlier gave it time to cool the intake charge.

Probably not possible with the factory PCM, but I wonder if having an extra injector at the throttle body spraying E85 would help to cool the intake charge. Maybe only at high loads / intake temps?

 

[Fabman]

I seem to remember an Engine Masters episode where they were looking at TBI (or carb) vs port injection, and one of the things they found was the TBI had lower intake temp in the runners because the fuel being put into the airstream earlier gave it time to cool the intake charge.

Probably not possible with the factory PCM, but I wonder if having an extra injector at the throttle body spraying E85 would help to cool the intake charge. Maybe only at high loads / intake temps?

I have given much thought to this regarding supercharging.
If I could put a couple injectors upstream of the blower it could cool the screws and that could help with IAT’s as well as heat soak.

 

[BWoolley]

I have given much thought to this regarding supercharging.
If I could put a couple injectors upstream of the blower it could cool the screws and that could help with IAT’s as well as heat soak.

At Cosworth we called it Pre Compressor Injection where we had four high flow injectors in a ring at the turbo inlet. The PCI system worked very well to cool the incoming charge air as well as to add additional fuel. It was first used on the Cosworth XB in 1992 and it made that incredible engine even more formidable. Top secret at the time although I had done something similar with mechanical injectors on a crazy project when I was with 10,000 RPM Speed Equipment almost 10 years earlier. So definitely do it and have fun!

 

[Fabman]

At Cosworth we called it Pre Compressor Injection where we had four high flow injectors in a ring at the turbo inlet. The PCI system worked very well to cool the incoming charge air as well as to add additional fuel. It was first used on the Cosworth XB in 1992 and it made that incredible engine even more formidable. Top secret at the time although I had done something similar with mechanical injectors on a crazy project when I was with 10,000 RPM Speed Equipment almost 10 years earlier. So definitely do it and have fun!

So its been done successfully.....fantastic.

 

[BWoolley]

So its been done successfully.....fantastic.

A note here. The fuel used was methanol since the Indy Car engines back then were running methanol. Also, we did have a few dyno fires early on since there was a dodgy seal between the 9th butterfly housing and the plenum and the leak fell right on top of the hot side of the turbo. Thankfully there was a bit of oil to give the flames some color...So be extra sure that there are no leaks in your intake system if you choose to try it out. I know, kinda goes without saying