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Educate Me on Harnesses

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531
364
sfo
Containment is everything. Start at a well mounted seat and build around that. I have seen several hurt with safety gear not applied in best way. There is nothing harder that building a dual use car compromising street and track driving. A streetcar survivable limit is 45g. We know pros have survived 3x that. Verstapans last crash 51g and just walked out of the car with zero issues.

I won't race without a full containment seat and my door has a block of nascar impaxx foam to limit impacts before my nascar bars. Imo racing is way safer than DE just because of the safety systems requirement.
 
67
123
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Melbourne Australia
Watson racing do a bracket that picks up off the factory rear seat bolt location for the lap belt fixings. There appear to be multiple holes along the front edge that would accommodate eyelets or fixed bolt mounts for the 5 or 6 point attachments.
I wasn't a fan of how the belts had to twist sharply around road style seats so added the Schroth mounting kit which allows rotation of the harness connection 90 degrees so the belts follow the line of the seat and allow forces to flow evenly across the full width of the belt.

2023-05-27 13.21.54.jpg2023-05-27 13.22.48.jpg
Just to make 100% clear regards pull down and pull up harness adjustment, the difference is to do with the lap belt part, i don't believe i have seen a pull up style chest strap harness, may be wrong here or more peoples interpretation but the chest part the adjuster is easily reached and adjusted by the driver even while driving. The biggest difference is the lap part and where the adjuster sits, is it in your lap with easy reach to the straps to give a quick yank when you realise you are pulling more g's than you thought possible so want it tighter before the next big braking marker, or is the adjuster down near the rear fixing point with the strap either flopping around outside the seat, dependent on type of seat or squashed through the seat cutout making it difficult to get enough force onto it to adjust whilst in the drivers seat with helmet on.

2023-05-27 13.23.02.jpg2023-05-27 13.23.13.jpg

Basically what i'm getting at is that your seat and harness need to be able to work together depending on where the seat belt mounting points are located.
In my very dirty racecar the distance from the eyebolt, just near the handbrake spring, is very close to the seat opening, meaning any adjuster and mounting clip has to fit within this very short distance. Perfect example of where the pull down harness makes a big difference.
2023-05-27 13.24.00.jpg
Whilst writing this i noticed another potential issue. Seat harness slots, the sparco has a small rectangular slot where my Cobra and the OMP shown above have rather large triangular openings allow harnesses to enter from a variety of angles and not get folded.
I have always been of the opinion that a harness should be as short as possible and lay as flat as possible over its route so the forces in an impact are spread evenly over the webbing. Every time you twist a belt around and obstacle you are concentrating the forces.

All this is great and cheap safety but don't cut corners on the fixings and your seat mounts, not all impacts are forward force generating where your weight is held by the belts, sometimes we go in backwards and your seat and its mounting are taking the full load with the added leverage of the seat back acting on the mounts. Ask me how i know, pulled the factory mounts out of the floor in an old porsche going in diagonal backwards. Was very happy to be in a race seat that didn't allow me to slide out of the seat.

1685161419526.png

1685161770530.png

1685161860430.png


Seems it cut the last part off when first posted.
Be aware that these style mounts lower your seating position which is great for a race car. If its a dual duty like mine, the standard seatbelts will sit higher over your shoulder up onto your neck. Race seats and road belts just dont work well especially with high legged sides that force the buckle to either go over the seat leaving a gap or if you are lucky the buckle may fit into the seat though the harness hole but won't be comfortable. The same applies for harness on the road, properly adjust like they should be, you cant lean forward to see into intersections.

And probably the most important part as mentioned by @bob above, its pointless having it if it isn't installed as per the method it was designed around. See the actual limited range of angles that a harness should be mounted and where it should sit on your body direct from the manufacturer.
1685166958196.png

There is no one size fits all when it comes to this subject, it has to fit you, your seat and mounting options available depending on the features available in your car. Take your time and work through what you have and how it will all work together. If anything this gives you questions to ask suppliers. Good ones will have ready answers and understand what you are trying to achieve overall rather than just selling you a part. Great ones will even suggest parts they don't supply caus they know the value of safety.
 
Last edited:
466
438
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
MD
Watson racing do a bracket that picks up off the factory rear seat bolt location for the lap belt fixings. There appear to be multiple holes along the front edge that would accommodate eyelets or fixed bolt mounts for the 5 or 6 point attachments.
I wasn't a fan of how the belts had to twist sharply around road style seats so added the Schroth mounting kit which allows rotation of the harness connection 90 degrees so the belts follow the line of the seat and allow forces to flow evenly across the full width of the belt.

View attachment 86545View attachment 86546
Just to make 100% clear regards pull down and pull up harness adjustment, the difference is to do with the lap belt part, i don't believe i have seen a pull up style chest strap harness, may be wrong here or more peoples interpretation but the chest part the adjuster is easily reached and adjusted by the driver even while driving. The biggest difference is the lap part and where the adjuster sits, is it in your lap with easy reach to the straps to give a quick yank when you realise you are pulling more g's than you thought possible so want it tighter before the next big braking marker, or is the adjuster down near the rear fixing point with the strap either flopping around outside the seat, dependent on type of seat or squashed through the seat cutout making it difficult to get enough force onto it to adjust whilst in the drivers seat with helmet on.

View attachment 86547View attachment 86548

Basically what i'm getting at is that your seat and harness need to be able to work together depending on where the seat belt mounting points are located.
In my very dirty racecar the distance from the eyebolt, just near the handbrake spring, is very close to the seat opening, meaning any adjuster and mounting clip has to fit within this very short distance. Perfect example of where the pull down harness makes a big difference.
View attachment 86549
Whilst writing this i noticed another potential issue. Seat harness slots, the sparco has a small rectangular slot where my Cobra and the OMP shown above have rather large triangular openings allow harnesses to enter from a variety of angles and not get folded.
I have always been of the opinion that a harness should be as short as possible and lay as flat as possible over its route so the forces in an impact are spread evenly over the webbing. Every time you twist a belt around and obstacle you are concentrating the forces.

All this is great and cheap safety but don't cut corners on the fixings and your seat mounts, not all impacts are forward force generating where your weight is held by the belts, sometimes we go in backwards and your seat and its mounting are taking the full load with the added leverage of the seat back acting on the mounts. Ask me how i know, pulled the factory mounts out of the floor in an old porsche going in diagonal backwards. Was very happy to be in a race seat that didn't allow me to slide out of the seat.

View attachment 86550

View attachment 86551

View attachment 86552
Amazing response. Thank you. I like the idea with the extra Schroth eyelet to correct the lap belt angle. Gives me some things to consider
 
67
123
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Melbourne Australia
Amazing response. Thank you. I like the idea with the extra Schroth eyelet to correct the lap belt angle. Gives me some things to consider
Most people don't realize the amount of time and effort that should go into the most important part of a track car. Your primary safety, seat and harness. We all build from there as we realize or witness what we are really playing with. Putting a road car on a track is a serious event, in a lot of cases road cars are doing way higher speeds without the benefits of cages and sanctioned safety requirements than a lot of series race cars. Food for thought.
 

JDee

Ancient Racer
1,797
2,001
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
5 miles from Mosport
Interesting timing on this thread.
Yesterday's track day at Mosport was going great, until it wasn't. The passenger seat, occupied by my wife, had suddenly come loose with no warning signs. I mean loose like flopping around loose. Back to the pits and we found the outside rear mounting bolt for the tracks had completely backed out and the inside one was loose. The seats and mounts are all aftermarket stuff from quality companies and installed by a reputable race shop. There was no loctite on the bolts either, which surprised me. Never seen anything like that happen before in 30 years of tracking cars.
Another thing to add to that nut and bolt list.
 
466
438
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
MD
Interesting timing on this thread.
Yesterday's track day at Mosport was going great, until it wasn't. The passenger seat, occupied by my wife, had suddenly come loose with no warning signs. I mean loose like flopping around loose. Back to the pits and we found the outside rear mounting bolt for the tracks had completely backed out and the inside one was loose. The seats and mounts are all aftermarket stuff from quality companies and installed by a reputable race shop. There was no loctite on the bolts either, which surprised me. Never seen anything like that happen before in 30 years of tracking cars.
Another thing to add to that nut and bolt list.
Glad you guys caught it in time! Do you put loc tite on the mounting bolts? Or just a freak occurrence?
 

JDee

Ancient Racer
1,797
2,001
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
5 miles from Mosport
Glad you guys caught it in time! Do you put loc tite on the mounting bolts? Or just a freak occurrence?
I generally use loctite on stuff like this. But I didn't install the seats, it was done by the shop where I bought them and the mounts. The seats are Corbeau race seats. They do a lot of race cars, though they are primarily a drag race shop I would think the standards would be the same. I foolishly just assumed they would be using at least blue loctite. I won't make that mistake again.
 
466
438
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
MD
I generally use loctite on stuff like this. But I didn't install the seats, it was done by the shop where I bought them and the mounts. The seats are Corbeau race seats. They do a lot of race cars, though they are primarily a drag race shop I would think the standards would be the same. I foolishly just assumed they would be using at least blue loctite. I won't make that mistake again.
I see. I asked because I recently took my seats out for the first time under ownership (5 years) and the bolts were pretty bolted down for a 35lb torque spec (I think). I didnt think about using loctite when I was putting them back in and after 2 track days, I started to feel the seat move. Now I know going forward.
 

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