The Mustang Forum for Track & Racing Enthusiasts

Taking your Mustang to an open track/HPDE event for the first time? Do you race competitively? This forum is for you! Log in to remove most ads.

  • Welcome to the Ford Mustang forum built for owners of the Mustang GT350, BOSS 302, GT500, and all other S550, S197, SN95, Fox Body and older Mustangs set up for open track days, road racing, and/or autocross. Join our forum, interact with others, share your build, and help us strengthen this community!

Forced Induction

Sesshomurai

Hi,
I'm starting this thread to discuss adding reliable forced induction systems to the boss motor. For our application, the unlimited race group class we plan to enter will require between 600-800rwhp for 30 minute race sessions to compete. So I'm looking to cog supercharger kits like this one[1].

[1] http://www.americanmuscle.com/procharger-cog-1213boss.html

But am still actively researching the topic. I am quite aware of all the ancillary issues forced induction brings (cooling, stress, etc.) but would like to use this thread to discuss creative solutions from people wanting to explore similar rigs with their boss cars.

One point of interest seems to be how much horsepower the boss motor/drivetrain can take and what upgrades are needed to support more. I have a litany of engine upgrades I plan to do in the process, yes, the slow and costly approach. Things like new rotating assemblies[2], cams[3], lifters[4], top hat fuel system[5], injectors[6], studs[7], oil pump[8], head cooling[9], oil cooling[10]l, clutch[11], transmission[12], driveshaft[13]

I will post feedback I get from race teams and vendors moving forward with my build out. All kinds of comments (constructive ones) welcome.

Boss 302x "built motor" parts list

[2] http://www.excessiveracing.com/ERE-500028C.aspx
[3] http://www.americanmuscle.com/compcams-stage3-blower-1112gt.html
[4] http://www.compcams.com/Products/CC-'Elite%20Race'-0.aspx
[5] http://www.jpcracing.com/2011-2013-mustang-gt-budget-return-style-fuel-system-1100-hp/
[6] http://pbhperformance.com/shop/injector-dynamics-100-lbhr-1000cc-injectors/
[7] http://www.lethalperformance.com/arp-5-0l-coyote-main-stud-kit-with-side-bolts.html
[7] http://www.lethalperformance.com/arp-2011-2012-5-0l-coyote-12-point-head-stud-kit.html
[8] http://pbhperformance.com/shop/billet-oil-pump-gears/
[9] http://www.lethalperformance.com/2012-2013-boss-mustang-302/cooling/head-cooling-mods/mmr-5-0l-ti-vct-head-cooling-mod.html
[10] http://www.cooltechllc.com/Boss/Boss_Oil_CoolerNoTherm.shtml
[11] http://www.rehagenracingproducts.com/2011-2013-50L-Mustang-Twin-Plate-Clutch-Kit-ET04XD.htm
[12] TBD
[13] http://www.lethalperformance.com/2012-2013-boss-mustang-302/driveline/driveshafts-and-loops/driveshafts/dss/dss-2011-mustang-gt-3-5-1000hp-aluminum-driveshaft-manual.html

The boss motor can likely handle lower boost levels without all the above parts (which are only to support 800rwhp goal).

Darren
 
Thanks for starting this Darren. I'm looking forward to your findings. While I would trust JPC with my Roadrunner, one of the few I would, I would still be hesitant to go with the Procharger for road racing because of the intake location. You mentioned using your hood to allow in fresh air. Does Procharger offer some sort of box to seal off the engine bay for this, would you fab something yourself, or just leave the it open to the bay as well? I have always been a fan or Procharger and would like to see you have success out of this. Whatever happens, your Boss will be a monster.
 

Sesshomurai

Yes. I will fabricate something. Like a tiny shaker hood scoop and snug seal over the intake and also wrap the intake tube with heat resistant foil. The custom scoop would be located in the rear of the hood off-center though. Paint it black. It'll be different.

Here is a link[1] to a procharger install on a stock boss. However, I don't intend to run max HP on this drivetrain without the listed upgrades. That would surely result in failure.

[1] http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/m5lp_1111_procharger_boss_302_boost_the_boss/viewall.html

I'm still open to changing chargers though. Nothing is set in stone as yet.
 
401
0
I dont think I have ever been this excited for a build. Good luck Darren.

How did you decide between Turbos and Supercharger?

Sarosh
 

Sesshomurai

sadil said:
I dont think I have ever been this excited for a build. Good luck Darren.

How did you decide between Turbos and Supercharger?

Sarosh

The only viable turbo kit for my needs (I could find) would be the Hellion TT, but its not compatible with the longtube exhaust I now have. It requires the stock exhaust. The procharger will benefit from the 1-7/8" LT exhaust, its a cleaner install, gives me power across more RPM bands and should be more reliable.

@puff, I got that driveshaft back in November, otherwise I'd be on board.
 
DGRacing said:
The only viable turbo kit for my needs (I could find) would be the Hellion TT, but its not compatible with the longtube exhaust I now have. It requires the stock exhaust. The procharger will benefit from the 1-7/8" LT exhaust, its a cleaner install, gives me power across more RPM bands and should be more reliable.

@puff, I got that driveshaft back in November, otherwise I'd be on board.

I did a pile of research into this a little while ago. You may want to email and ask them specific questions because we found that for the most part, the claims of 700 to 1000 horsepower are all smoke and mirrors. The kits they all sell, though they post that they are capable of HUGE numbers, will only make 550 to 650 wheel horsepower depending on what other mods you have already or are going to add . If you want over 600 RWHP you have to buy a tuner kit which does not come with a tune or injectors, you have to supply the injectors you want to run for the power level you want and then have the car dyno tuned to work with your parts.

The closest I came to real RWHP claims in kit form were from Kenney Bell. Check out their site, they are quite forward about what it takes to make that kind of power. They have charts for octane, boost levels, air flow and what kind of power you can expect with what equipment and what boost lvls you run.

Carefull who you deal with, I found quite a few people we talked to about this were less than reputable when making claims about what thier equipment could do.

Keep us informed as to how this goes for you, I am definately interested, hopefully you find better info than I did. I still want to do this at some point.
 
sadil said:
I dont think I have ever been this excited for a build. Good luck Darren.

How did you decide between Turbos and Supercharger?

Sarosh

no brainer for street or road race driveability. No turbo lag, Supercharger makes less peak power but has a better spread across the power curve. Easier to manage the power with the right foot. It's always there, you don't have to wait for it or change your driving style to allow for turbo lag.

A friend summed it all up. Turbo on my car is nice, but I would rather be blown.
 
401
0
I thought smaller turbos would be very efficient and would avoid that horrendous turbo lag compared to having one massive turbo. Cars like the GTR have almost zero lag.

Wouldn't a supercharger have reliability issues on a road coarse? Are they designed for consistent operation under stress,? I was dissapointed with the gt 500's performance on a road course. Lap times just got slower with every lap, and I thought this was the supercharger just not being able to keep up.

Sarosh
 

Sesshomurai

sadil said:
I thought smaller turbos would be very efficient and would avoid that horrendous turbo lag compared to having one massive turbo. Cars like the GTR have almost zero lag.

Wouldn't a supercharger have reliability issues on a road coarse? Are they designed for consistent operation under stress,? I was dissapointed with the gt 500's performance on a road course. Lap times just got slower with every lap, and I thought this was the supercharger just not being able to keep up.

Sarosh

Yeah, this is the kind of discussion we should have in this thread. It seems either option has its technical dilemmas. Superchargers can experience heat soak degradation, but I _think_ this varies depending on style of supercharger, size/type of intercooler and other factors. For my needs, I'm not doing endurance racing, so I only need performance to last 30 minutes or so on a hot day (2x a day) as a worst case scenario. Even turbos will have heat related issues. Would love to hear from any vendors or race teams lurking out there.
 
DGRacing said:
Yes. I will fabricate something. Like a tiny shaker hood scoop and snug seal over the intake and also wrap the intake tube with heat resistant foil. The custom scoop would be located in the rear of the hood off-center though. Paint it black. It'll be different.

Here is a link[1] to a procharger install on a stock boss. However, I don't intend to run max HP on this drivetrain without the listed upgrades. That would surely result in failure.

[1] http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/m5lp_1111_procharger_boss_302_boost_the_boss/viewall.html

I'm still open to changing chargers though. Nothing is set in stone as yet.

I had a 94 mustang GT with a Procharger. The filter laid over the headers and under the hood vent. I made a fiber glass scoop that directed the air to the air filter. I only dragged raced the car. I never saw a differance in mph no matter how I routed the air filter. Ultimately, I ended up using a small filter that bolted directly to the blower. It looked nicer and made it easier to work on the motor. I spoke to ProCharger about it. They said that when the car was moving, so much air was being moved by the motion of the car, that there was no benefit to routing fresh air in. You mght get more results by wrapping your headers to keep as much heat from rising to your filter. The one thing that always gave me more mph was icing the inner cooler. In other words, if you are going to make an air duct, direct the air to the inner cooler not the air filter.
 
DGRacing said:
Yes. I will fabricate something. Like a tiny shaker hood scoop and snug seal over the intake and also wrap the intake tube with heat resistant foil. The custom scoop would be located in the rear of the hood off-center though. Paint it black. It'll be different.

Here is a link[1] to a procharger install on a stock boss. However, I don't intend to run max HP on this drivetrain without the listed upgrades. That would surely result in failure.

[1] http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/m5lp_1111_procharger_boss_302_boost_the_boss/viewall.html

I'm still open to changing chargers though. Nothing is set in stone as yet.
 

Sesshomurai

seca954 said:
I had a 94 mustang GT with a Procharger. The filter laid over the headers and under the hood vent. I made a fiber glass scoop that directed the air to the air filter. I only dragged raced the car. I never saw a differance in mph no matter how I routed the air filter. Ultimately, I ended up using a small filter that bolted directly to the blower. It looked nicer and made it easier to work on the motor. I spoke to ProCharger about it. They said that when the car was moving, so much air was being moved by the motion of the car, that there was no benefit to routing fresh air in. You mght get more results by wrapping your headers to keep as much heat from rising to your filter. The one thing that always gave me more mph was icing the inner cooler. In other words, if you are going to make an air duct, direct the air to the inner cooler not the air filter.

Good points. Yeah, I wrapped the headers already. :)
 
sadil said:
I thought smaller turbos would be very efficient and would avoid that horrendous turbo lag compared to having one massive turbo. Cars like the GTR have almost zero lag.

Wouldn't a supercharger have reliability issues on a road coarse? Are they designed for consistent operation under stress,? I was dissapointed with the gt 500's performance on a road course. Lap times just got slower with every lap, and I thought this was the supercharger just not being able to keep up.

Sarosh
Turbo lag like a 1979 Porsche 930 Turbo are a thing of the past. It's still there but much more manageable. My only turbo car was a 1993 Nissan 300 ZX TT and it was a blast to drive yet still had some turbo lag. I am about to buy another turbo car though and it's amazing what the new smaller turbos can do.

I'd be curious to see statistics from over the past 50 years showing the percentage of road race cars using superchargers vs. turbos.
 
Turbo lag is a thing of the past in production style cars because they use a turbo that is less than optimal for the size of engine they are running. Smaller turbos = less lag time but also less peak power. Production cars arent tuning for max horsepower, they have to design in a certain amount of reliability and driveability or they can't sell the cars to us.

The Gt 500's lap times got slower mostly because of brake fade over long periods on the track, not so much because of Heat soak on the blower. It's Brakes are too small for that big sled. The camaro doesnt suffer from that issue and it is supercharged as well, it was slower around the track on the first lap but maintained it's speed while the GT500 got slower because of braking issues, not a lack of power.

Current day twin turbo setups have lessened the lag issues quite a bit but you still need to build boost to make decent power. Building boost means getting the revs up and exhaust gas flowing. On a track car that may not be as much of an issue if you are running hard. I still think that supercharging is the better option for the Mustang, since there are quite a few of them around and the factory even builds full kits for them.

Twin turbo means a pile of extra plumbing and a very tight fit in an already crowded engine bay and if you think the Boss has heat issues now, wait till you put a couple of turbos under the hood and all the plumbing that goes with them, turbos thrive on heat. Thats what makes them work.
 

Sesshomurai

Good points. I also thought the same about the ZR1 which performs exceptional on tracks.

The other disqualifier for turbos on my car is compatibility with the big exhaust. So that leaves me with supercharging regardless. Unless there is another turbo kit out there that can work with Kooks longtubes without ungodly amount of fabrication.

I looked at vortech, roush, KB superchargers, but the procharger just seems the cleanest 'add on' without changing the core/intake/exhaust engine configuration. I will leave the motor stock and keep boost levels low, but I will upgrade the clutch (already have the driveshaft).

And see how far that gets me. From there, the parts list in my first post is eventually where things go as I inch the boost up. Even then I will do it in phases so the motor can break in to the changes over time rather than all at once.
 
The GT500 is a tremendous SUPERCHARGED package that is hindered by sub par brakes for it's size and weight and nowhere near enough tire for that much car.

The GT500 makes 660+ horsepower ( dyno runs suggest more like 720) it weighs 4,000 pounds. That's a really heavy car. It runs essentialy the same brakes and tire sizes that our Boss mustangs run. It should murder a camaro on a track and it did, for 1 lap, till it's brakes took a nap.

Your Boss weighs 3,600 pounds or less depending on mods, pretty sure most of you changed your tires and brakes after your first few trips to the track because they were not up to the task of running the Boss around the track.

I was always hugely disappointed in what Ford did with the GT500, it is a monster power machine but they dropped the ball as far as brakes and tires went. This car could have been amazing and untouchable if they had just gone that little extra and put decent size wheels and tires on it and better brakes. For the money, it should have had them from the factory.
 
NewBossowner said:
The GT500 is a tremendous SUPERCHARGED package that is hindered by sub par brakes for it's size and weight and nowhere near enough tire for that much car.

The GT500 makes 660+ horsepower ( dyno runs suggest more like 720) it weighs 4,000 pounds. That's a really heavy car. It runs essentialy the same brakes and tire sizes that our Boss mustangs run. It should murder a camaro on a track and it did, for 1 lap, till it's brakes took a nap.

Your Boss weighs 3,600 pounds or less depending on mods, pretty sure most of you changed your tires and brakes after your first few trips to the track because they were not up to the task of running the Boss around the track.

I was always hugely disappointed in what Ford did with the GT500, it is a monster power machine but they dropped the ball as far as brakes and tires went. This car could have been amazing and untouchable if they had just gone that little extra and put decent size wheels and tires on it and better brakes. For the money, it should have had them from the factory.

Exactly, SO much potential ruined by the lack of 2 very simple things: brakes and tires. Boo to Ford for not doing it right. GM took the time to develop the ZL1 and its a killer machine. Not my style, but you CAN NOT deny its performance results. Ford did better with the Boss, but still left some details out, cooling, the horrible shifter and trans etc.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
NewBossowner said:
I was always hugely disappointed in what Ford did with the GT500, it is a monster power machine but they dropped the ball as far as brakes and tires went. This car could have been amazing and untouchable if they had just gone that little extra and put decent size wheels and tires on it and better brakes. For the money, it should have had them from the factory.

So true. But if they did this, the Boss wouldn't be quite as special...


Back on topic...somebody mentioned above to route air for the intercooler. I think this is the most important part for a S/C road racer. Blowers under boost make a tremendous amount of heat. Even if you are running 20 minute sessions, you can overcome any heat-sink capacity within a couple of hard laps. The key is to transfer the heat out to the air. The problem with the GT500 and terminators is the coolant/heat sink system. Once the coolant is hot and overcoming the H/E, you're done.

While I'm not building a S/C roadracer...if I were to do it I'd plumb two in series.
 

Sesshomurai

Grant, when you say route air for the intercooler, what does this mean? The intercooler sits in front of the radiator and basically is fully exposed to the front, right?
 

TMO Supporting Vendors

Top