Forced Induction

[Grant 302]

Grant, when you say route air for the intercooler, what does this mean? The intercooler sits in front of the radiator and basically is fully exposed to the front, right?

Darren, I was agreeing with the part of the post below:

In other words, if you are going to make an air duct, direct the air to the inner cooler not the air filter.

The finer point I was trying to make is that the typical front placement of an air to air IC in centri kits isn't really best for continuous heat transfer for your whole engine. If a front mounted IC is generating a lot of heat, it will be making it even harder for the radiator to cool the engine. My concern is that the Boss is already taxed for engine cooling as is...putting an IC in front won't help that issue on a road racer.

 

[Sesshomurai]

Darren, I was agreeing with the part of the post below:

The finer point I was trying to make is that the typical front placement of an air to air IC in centri kits isn't really best for continuous heat transfer for your whole engine. If a front mounted IC is generating a lot of heat, it will be making it even harder for the radiator to cool the engine. My concern is that the Boss is already taxed for engine cooling as is...putting an IC in front won't help that issue on a road racer.

Yeah. Good point. I'll see what data procharger has on that matter or a recommendation for cooling upgrades. I agree forced induction will introduce more cooling issues, but am hoping the vendors have either designed for this or have a solution in mind. One of the reasons I'm considering procharger is that they built kits specifically for the boss, so hoping they accounted for all the issues specific to the boss in their kit!

More to come!

 

[tlflow]

Hi,
I'm starting this thread to discuss adding reliable forced induction systems to the boss motor. For our application, the unlimited race group class we plan to enter will require between 600-800rwhp for 30 minute race sessions to compete. So I'm looking to cog supercharger kits like this one[1].

[1] http://www.americanmuscle.com/procharger-cog-1213boss.html

But am still actively researching the topic. I am quite aware of all the ancillary issues forced induction brings (cooling, stress, etc.) but would like to use this thread to discuss creative solutions from people wanting to explore similar rigs with their boss cars.

One point of interest seems to be how much horsepower the boss motor/drivetrain can take and what upgrades are needed to support more. I have a litany of engine upgrades I plan to do in the process, yes, the slow and costly approach. Things like new rotating assemblies[2], cams[3], lifters[4], top hat fuel system[5], injectors[6], studs[7], oil pump[8], head cooling[9], oil cooling[10]l, clutch[11], transmission[12], driveshaft[13]

I will post feedback I get from race teams and vendors moving forward with my build out. All kinds of comments (constructive ones) welcome.

Boss 302x "built motor" parts list

[2] http://www.excessiveracing.com/ERE-500028C.aspx
[3] http://www.americanmuscle.com/compcams-stage3-blower-1112gt.html
[4] http://www.compcams.com/Products/CC-'Elite%20Race'-0.aspx
[5] http://www.jpcracing.com/2011-2013-mustang-gt-budget-return-style-fuel-system-1100-hp/
[6] http://pbhperformance.com/shop/injector-dynamics-100-lbhr-1000cc-injectors/
[7] http://www.lethalperformance.com/arp-5-0l-coyote-main-stud-kit-with-side-bolts.html
[7] http://www.lethalperformance.com/arp-2011-2012-5-0l-coyote-12-point-head-stud-kit.html
[8] http://pbhperformance.com/shop/billet-oil-pump-gears/
[9] http://www.lethalperformance.com/2012-2013-boss-mustang-302/cooling/head-cooling-mods/mmr-5-0l-ti-vct-head-cooling-mod.html
[10] http://www.cooltechllc.com/Boss/Boss_Oil_CoolerNoTherm.shtml
[11] http://www.rehagenracingproducts.com/2011-2013-50L-Mustang-Twin-Plate-Clutch-Kit-ET04XD.htm
[12] TBD
[13] http://www.lethalperformance.com/2012-2013-boss-mustang-302/driveline/driveshafts-and-loops/driveshafts/dss/dss-2011-mustang-gt-3-5-1000hp-aluminum-driveshaft-manual.html

The boss motor can likely handle lower boost levels without all the above parts (which are only to support 800rwhp goal).

Darren

where does item #4 go?

 

[Sesshomurai]

Between the cams and pushrods...

 

[Grant 302]

Between the cams and pushrods...

??? You've got problems, if you've got PUSHRODS!!!

The problems with most S/C systems is that they are primarily designed and tested for drag racing not road racing.

There's a reason why the old SVO, and the WRX/STi cars located the IC elsewhere and ducted air from a different source. Many twin turbo cars put the ICs in the front corners of the bumper and vent separately from the air for the radiator.

 

[Sesshomurai]

??? You've got problems, if you've got PUSHRODS!!!

The problems with most S/C systems is that they are primarily designed and tested for drag racing not road racing.

There's a reason why the old SVO, and the WRX/STi cars located the IC elsewhere and ducted air from a different source. Many twin turbo cars put the ICs in the front corners of the bumper and vent separately from the air for the radiator.

I'm no mechanic! lol

 

[PeteInCT]

Not sure if it was mentioned above, but the MT-82 is only good for 500 hp net. This is outside of a clutch swapout (which was mentioned).

-Pete

 

[Sesshomurai]

Not sure if it was mentioned above, but the MT-82 is only good for 500 hp net. This is outside of a clutch swapout (which was mentioned).

-Pete

Yeah, good point. Have to swap up to the magnum XL T56 I think, along with the clutch.

 

[pufferfish]

you should definitely go with an air to water setup. aside from the much better thermal conductivity than air to air, you can locate the heat exchanger anywhere you can get air flow. you can also get a large capacity reservoir to offer better protection from heat soak in high dwell time useage such as road racing.

this may sound crazy, but i have thought about locating the heat exchanger and reservoir in the rear. you get better weight balance and the radiator isn't getting hotter second hand air. i dont know if the undercar air is too warm (from the exhaust) to effectively be used to cool the water, but it would be worth investigating. its free airflow...meaning, it doesn't effect drag. and if positioned properly, it could effectively provide downforce in the rear. the perfect spot would be where the spare tire well sits. whatever area the heat exchanger doesn't sit in, could be the reservoir. you can pack that sucker with icewater too! i woult thermostatically control the water in that case though, as the difference in intake temps at the beginning and end of the race could be too much for the tune to compensate for.

the air to water unit could be placed anywhere convenient between the sc outlet and intake. or for simplicity sake, just get a twin screw setup with the air to water sitting in the engine valley. then plumb your heat exchanger as stated above and enjoy more low end torque, less weight in front of the front axle and a much simpler installation. get one of those monster 3200 blowers and it will flow plenty for your power range.

another suggestion i have is to go with a torque arm in place of the 3rd link. the 3rd link design is not as effective at putting power to the ground...straight line or corner exit. you will need all the help you can get in that department!

 

[jfolsom28]

Whats the reasoning for getting #2 if the boss already has forged internals? Shouldnt the stock internals support up to 800 hp?

 

[Sesshomurai]

Whats the reasoning for getting #2 if the boss already has forged internals? Shouldnt the stock internals support up to 800 hp?

Not with the kind of no-blink reliability i need.

 

[NewBossowner]

Not with the kind of no-blink reliability i need.

That being the case, why not a complete short block?

 

[Sesshomurai]

That being the case, why not a complete short block?

Yeah, that's on the table too.

http://www.excessiveracing.com/engines/modular/shortblocks.aspx

 

[pufferfish]

since we are throwing money around and a short block is on the table...find a stroker!

 

[Sesshomurai]

since we are throwing money around and a short block is on the table...find a stroker!

Like this one?[1]
Would it drop in and replace the stock engine block (with tune of course)? Sorry, my engine knowledge is rather limited still...it's a magic black box to me.

[1] http://www.excessiveracing.com/engines/modular/shortblock/PS50SB.aspx

 

[pufferfish]

Like this one?[1]
Would it drop in and replace the stock engine block (with tune of course)? Sorry, my engine knowledge is rather limited still...it's a magic black box to me.

[1] http://www.excessiveracing.com/engines/modular/shortblock/PS50SB.aspx

nope. won't work. the coyote/roadrunner block is different. i recall weisco and K1 getting together to develop a 5.8 liter stroker for the coyote. i haven't heard anything about it in over a year. it may still be in development? can't wait to see how it turns out. could you imagine the power?! a pushrod 302 bumped to 347 gains an easy 100hp with smallish heads. growing these firebreathers by 50 cubic inches is going to just be amazing! get that 5.8 with JPC's stage 3 heads and cams, the huge ford cobrajet intake and the brand new kooks 2" primary headers and i'd bet you'd see 600+rwhp NATURALLY ASPIRATED! gives me goosebumps!

 

[NewBossowner]

Well if money is no object.

http://www.streetfire.net/photo/new-ford-boss-500-drag-racing-engine_1003682.htm

Rumors of 11,000 horsepower for 2013.

 

[zzyzx]

Get up to speed on the 2013+ CobraJet program:

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/m5lp_1207_coyote_5_0_engine/

http://www.stangtv.com/features/sema-coverage/sema-2011-ford-racings-super-cobra-jet-concept-5-0-coyote-engine/

Info on normally aspirated CobraJet engine:

http://www.dragzine.com/news/video-2013-cobra-jet-5-0-put-to-the-dyno-test/

You gotta ask yourself why you want FI given your goals after reading the article above.

 

[Sesshomurai]

Get up to speed on the 2013+ CobraJet program:

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/m5lp_1207_coyote_5_0_engine/

http://www.stangtv.com/features/sema-coverage/sema-2011-ford-racings-super-cobra-jet-concept-5-0-coyote-engine/

Info on normally aspirated CobraJet engine:

http://www.dragzine.com/news/video-2013-cobra-jet-5-0-put-to-the-dyno-test/

You gotta ask yourself why you want FI given your goals after reading the article above.

I'm not drag racing, but the "unlimited" race class I want to enter have cars with between 700-1000hp close to 200mph. Can't compete in that class with 425rwhp....I'm not attached to FI but in an age of bolt on HP, it seems cheaper than building a new motor (which will probably happen down the road). Sure, it won't be reliable and will have issues, but that's the life of race cars any way. They get rebuilt frequently.

 

[sadil]

How much power can the stock motor realistically handle? Id love to have 600-700 rwhp (within Tremec limits), either through a supercharger or turbos, but what can I upgrade internally to ensure reliability.

Anyone know what the weakest link is?

If we bumped power gradually, what would be the first part to go, and then the second? Third? Fourth? I would love to build my engine, but I dont have 25K to spend.

Furthermore, how can you strengthen an engine to handle nitrous? How frequently can nitrous be used?

Just throwing a bunch of questions.