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Future of Mustang Engines

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Here's where the powerplant is heading for next generation Mustangs and into the latter part of this decade. I'm just sayin':

ARYSBURG, N.C. (Feb. 23, 2012) - Roush Yates Engines has announced a successful first track test at the North Carolina Center for Automotive Research (NCCAR) test facility in Garysburg, N.C., of the long-awaited Ford production-based 3.2L V6 Twin Turbo racing engine.

The engine project, under development for the past 18 months in association with Project Libra based here, received significant Roush Yates in-house engineering and dynamometer testing and analysis. It was with great satisfaction to all involved to at last witness the car and engine package on the race track for the first time earlier this month.
 
Cool. I fully epxect a variant of that motor to be in the 2014 1/2 Mustang GT.
 
I have nothing against turbos, my last car was one and I had no issues with it even on the track (other than the intake hose popping off once) but it is hard to get one to really sound good. Like the new Ms with the fake motor noises through the speakers. I love the sound of old school screamer turbos, like some of the Ruff turbo 911s from the 80s, but I'm sure they will mute them just like the sc whine on the GT500 (at least the one I drove) and all the other modern forced induction cars. It makes sense, as for most people the noise would just be annoying, but the hi po special editions would be cool to leave them whiny. I doubt they will, but it would be cool. Though I suspect modified BOVs will be all too common like in the import scene.
 

Sesshomurai

jimprw said:
Here's where the powerplant is heading for next generation Mustangs and into the latter part of this decade. I'm just sayin':

ARYSBURG, N.C. (Feb. 23, 2012) - Roush Yates Engines has announced a successful first track test at the North Carolina Center for Automotive Research (NCCAR) test facility in Garysburg, N.C., of the long-awaited Ford production-based 3.2L V6 Twin Turbo racing engine.

The engine project, under development for the past 18 months in association with Project Libra based here, received significant Roush Yates in-house engineering and dynamometer testing and analysis. It was with great satisfaction to all involved to at last witness the car and engine package on the race track for the first time earlier this month.

A sad future for american muscle cars.....no more throaty V8....no more low-end throttle response....no more streetlight drags....

....instead whiny...wheezy turbos with acceleration lag....
 
Many modern turbo setups have almost no lag, and spool by 1500 rpm. I hope they design the engine bay with enough room for at least a special edition v8 car.
 
I would have no issue with a V-6 pony package, V-6 twin turbo GT and a V-8 GT500, That would seem to give everyone a flavor that would work and meet world car expectations
 
2012boss said:
I would have no issue with a V-6 pony package, V-6 twin turbo GT and a V-8 GT500, That would seem to give everyone a flavor that would work and meet world car expectations
I think a twin turbo V6 as a GT would hurt sales. I have a Subaru WRX tuned at 305awhp at 20psi and turbo lag is pretty noticable. RPM's need to be above 4k to get that car to move. The 5.0 makes power everywhere in the rpm's. Who knows though.
 
I'm pretty sure their going to keep the recently developed 3.7l and 5.0l engines, guys. It doesn't make sense to keep 2 brand new engines for 4 years; that would waste Ford a lot of money.
 

PeteInCT

#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
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IMO - Simpler is better. I'm all for fuel efficiency in a DD car, but not my track car. There will almost always be some kind of lag, think of how they operate. There needs to be additional exhaust pressure to spin a fan to suck in more air and create more pressure in the intake manifold. Even throttle response at any RPM is different. Turbo's are also traditionally 'peaky' engines, not as flat a power curve as we have on the Boss. There are also more parts (and expensive ones) to break - who's going to get 200K miles out of a high performance turbo ?

I find it much more rewarding (and fun) to drive a normally aspirated track car that has a ton of low end torque. When I had my TTS wound up to 340 HP it was a lot of fun, but the lag was annoying, especially in tight turns where you're dropping down to 3'rd (Oak tree at VIR....) and you want to shoot out of it like a canon. Porsche has done tremendous work with limiting lag with their vane tecnnology, but who wants to spend megabucks on a GT2RS ? ;-) I've never driven one, but I'd bet there some kind of lag there also.

I'd rather see them develop more efficient superchargers or just leave well enough alone. Less heat, less to break.
 
Modern, well done turbo motors aren't peaky anymore, and aren't laggy. Modded STis and TTs are not modern turbo motors, nor was my Evo. I haven't driven the Ecoboost SHO, but that would probably be the best indicator of how the new motors will be. There are several newer turbo motors that you can hardly tell they are turbos other than making way too much power for the displacement. And dyno graphs are not a good indicator, as they tend to start the runs at higher rpm than the motors will make power. 335 BMWs hit max torque at 1200 rpm for example.


That doesn't mean Ford will do it right, but it has a pretty good history recently so I would give them the benefit of the doubt until I try one. 5.0 will stay at least in the trucks for a while, they haven't even gone DI on it yet so there is plenty of power and better fuel economy still on the table. Also, you have to bear in mind that the gen Y are getting to where they have money now, they grew up with turbo motor imports and Ford is going to try to draw them into the Mustang fold. But hopefully they keep a V8 for us old farts.
 
MY father has an SHO, feels like a really really strong V6 in terms of its powerband. Probably feel like a V8 in a lighter car, but only in the sense of the general driving speed powerband.
 

PeteInCT

#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
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I've driven a Lincoln MKS - it's got lag and that's the 3.5L V6 EcoBoost engine. I agree that's not a leading edge implementation of today's turbo technology though. We can agree to disagree about the lag and throttle response ;D

Even if it was non-existent IMO I like the fact that there's less hardware under the hood to go wrong (over time) and I like the fact that each cylinder is doing less work (assuming my block weight isn't an issue either). Again, my opinions for a race/track car are not exactly the same as for a DD.

I think you hit an important point, some of the reason for the introduction of the turbo technology is marketing pressure. Some of my son's friends (he's 20) love the Boss but didn't like the fact that it is normally aspirated. Then I take them out for a spin and they get it. Obviously fuel efficiency is an important aspect for a DD car. One of the great things about my TTS was that I could do 0 - 60 in 4.3 secs and I could get a real 30 MPG @ 65 MPH on the highway (3200 lb vehicle).

All this said, if I could afford an MP12-4C I buy one and not have to worry about if/when the turbo's were ready to be replaced ;D

[size=10pt][size=10pt]SAVE THE V8's !!!!![/size][/size]
 
I can agree with everything you just said. If they do the turbo motor right, I think 90% of the younger people will like it. But they need to keep an NA V8 option for the rest of us ;D

I'd be worried more if they said it would be AWD. AWD can be set up to be fun, Evos are a good example, but it is almost universally set up for soccer moms. And honestly I would not be interested if it was AWD, the main reason I looked at Mustangs originally (almost bought a GT Brembo one last year) was to get away from AWD.
 
PeteInCT said:
Even if it was non-existent IMO I like the fact that there's less hardware under the hood to go wrong (over time) and I like the fact that each cylinder is doing less work (assuming my block weight isn't an issue either). Again, my opinions for a race/track car are not exactly the same as for a DD.
I owned a 1993 Nissan 300 ZX TT and I had a constant fear that something would go wrong with the motor. The reality was it had only a little turbo lag and ran perfectly for the 30,000 miles I put on the car. It was a terrific motor. With that said I like my new V8 a lot more. ;D
 

PeteInCT

#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
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CaliMR said:
I can agree with everything you just said. If they do the turbo motor right, I think 90% of the younger people will like it. But they need to keep an NA V8 option for the rest of us ;D

I'd be worried more if they said it would be AWD. AWD can be set up to be fun, Evos are a good example, but it is almost universally set up for soccer moms. And honestly I would not be interested if it was AWD, the main reason I looked at Mustangs originally (almost bought a GT Brembo one last year) was to get away from AWD.

Cali - +1 on the AWD comment! When I first started in track driving I ASS-UMED that AWD was the way to go on a track. I bought the TTS, modded the heck out of it and made it into a pretty damn good track car. The issue, however, is the 60/40 torque split. It's not very rear-end loaded like an R8 and has the typical understeer tendencies. It was VERY hard to get into trouble with that car, even in the rain, but when I got into a turn with a Lotus or a Cayman S I was toast. When I had the car in it's final form before I sold it I took some Pro lessons from Peter Argetsinger and asked him his thoughts on how far he thought I get with that car. His immediate reaction was that I needed to get out of it and into a well balanced RWD track car. There are some EVO's out there that kick-butt in the turns and they make it easy to drive. That all said, I'm very happy that I ended up with a car that is not only has excellent handling capabilities but gives me a license to make mistakes at times and learn from them. Seems like we all picked a platform that does all that AND kicks some tail against some pricier track car options.
 
^ that

My Evo was mostly stock, it just had tires, pads, fluid, axle back to eliminate the flapper for progressive spool and a the banjo bolts turned for camber. The older ones like mine were 50/50 but with a magic transfer case (and no TC or anything like that, just ABS), and did not have the active rear diff. It would understeer if you really pushed it, but a little sawing action would usually clear it up. I did a couple days with it tuned, but I kept spinning all four coming out of slow corners so I pulled off the tune. I let my buddy, who used to be a full time pro driver, take it out in the TT group and he passed every car he got near until the brakes faded.

But... as fun as it was to just throw it into corners and slide it around turns, like you said it was near impossible to get yourself in trouble. It covered up any minor mistakes and many major ones. I realized I was not getting any better because the car just would not tell me when I was doing something wrong. So I sold it and built a Spec E30, and even considering I have 888s on the E30 the fact that I have steadily pushed my times down to where I am now running at least as fast as the Evo still means I have gotten a lot better. I would not have gotten better driving the Evo, though it was definitely a lot of fun. Being fast with RWD, with the nannies turned off, is just so much more rewarding because it shows a much bigger gap between skill levels.

On the street, it isn't as big a difference if you are not going way too fast. There are plenty of fun street cars in either configuration, but it just takes a little more hp to do burn outs with AWD. But a Mustang should be RWD, they can make an AWD turbo focus if they want. Leave the Mustang alone.
 
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I hate to say it gang, but we who worship the V8 are gradually making our way to the happy hunting ground. The kids who are now in their teens and twenties won't be able to afford any performance car until they get good jobs and are somewhat established in life. That's anywhere from 5 - 15 years from now. And what will be available to them when they're ready to buy? Not V8s. And while they might appreciate Dad's or Grandpa's (ouch) V8 classic or reissue muscle car, they're going to be more influenced by what is coming out in the next few years. Their nostalgia will be for the next generation of performance cars - their sound, their size and (reduced) weight and, yes, their gas mileage - if they're even powered by petroleum products at all. And that is what I think the auto executives understand in spades. We fell in love with what we wanted when we were kids - and the market for the current reissue muscle cars is us. I think we'll all be amazed at what these V6, hybrid and electric cars will actually do performance wise (check out the NSX concept). My personal hope is that our current crop of pony cars will still find love in 2030. I think they will.
 
jimprw said:
I hate to say it gang, but we who worship the V8 are gradually making our way to the happy hunting ground. The kids who are now in their teens and twenties won't be able to afford any performance car until they get good jobs and are somewhat established in life. That's anywhere from 5 - 15 years from now. And what will be available to them when they're ready to buy? Not V8s. And while they might appreciate Dad's or Grandpa's (ouch) V8 classic or reissue muscle car, they're going to be more influenced by what is coming out in the next few years. Their nostalgia will be for the next generation of performance cars - their sound, their size and (reduced) weight and, yes, their gas mileage - if they're even powered by petroleum products at all. And that is what I think the auto executives understand in spades. We fell in love with what we wanted when we were kids - and the market for the current reissue muscle cars is us. I think we'll all be amazed at what these V6, hybrid and electric cars will actually do performance wise (check out the NSX concept). My personal hope is that our current crop of pony cars will still find love in 2030. I think they will.
Well stated.

Look for a hybrid coming to your garage in the next decade.
 
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Good points. I think soon the V8 will only live in the aftermarket and racing hobby world, and the V6, electric/hybrid, and new technologies will be the only things available in new cars coming out. I won't mind having a fuel efficient or electric DD and then have a V8 Mustang to play with.
 

98RedGT

2012 #552
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if everything that is being said here comes to be, it will only make our V8 mustangs more desirable in the future
 

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