cloud9
Gary
Got it. So fan speeds/temp on and off wouldn't be thrown off either in that case.95blitz said:
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Good and Bad at Sebring
- Thread starter2012YellowBoss
- Start date
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cloud9
Gary
OK I got some answers back already from Meziere. They were very helpful but it doesn't look like an electric water pump is the solution for our application. Possibly a larger pulley but there would be tradeoffs at low RPM. I think removing the A/C condenser will be my next step. Anyway here's the exchange:
"I am having overheating issues on the road course in my 2012 Boss 302. I've installed the 302S radiator, air-to-oil cooler, Tiger Racing hood and 302S grille and am still seeing high ECTs. The oil is staying cool (240*) but the water continues to run way too hot on hot days (250+) A friend suggested I may be getting cavitation from the stock water pump at high RPM. The Boss redlines at 7500 RPM. Will your model # WP346S work on a 2012 Boss 302 Mustang?
Would it likely solve this cooling issue? Running out of things to try....
Thanks,
Gary"
"Hi Gary,
You Didn't say in your email if the car gets hot while driving on the street.
Our WP346s water pump will not work on the new coyote 5.0 motor as the pump was redesigned for this engine. We do make a new water pump, our WP342s will work on the new coyote motor. This will flow 55gpm which is great for a street/strip raced car. The pump should also work well on a car used for track days that is only going around a road course for a few laps at a time.
If this car is used for more then that I would recommend staying with your belt driven water pump. We normally do not recommend electric water pumps for road racing applications. It may be necessary to slow the water pump rpm down to prevent cavitation, this is done by increasing diameter of the water pump pulley. I would also check to make sure your temperature gauge is reading correctly.
Other things to check. Make sure all the air is out of your cooling system.
Air in the cooling system is the number one issue we find with customers overheating problems. Make sure nothing is in your coolant hoses that could be causing a restriction. I have heard of rags and other debris in the cooling system causing restrictions. Also make sure your water pump is working properly, It could have a damaged impellor that would reduce its ability to pump enough coolant.
Let me know if I could do anything more to help you."
"Coolant temps are just fine on the street. The car has a 170* tstat and water temps on the street are usually in the 180s and 190s after a little spirited driving. I have bled the system several times so I don't think air in the system is an issue. We run this car pretty hard and sessions are usually about 25 minutes (4-8 times a day) so depending on the track you're in the 10-15 lap range per session. The water temp comes up after about 10 minutes typically on hotter days (80+* ambient) Elevation is a factor as temps are running higher in Central NE where it's a 2k ft above sea level, versus at BIR in Brainerd, MN where it's closer to 1000 ft. Watching flow through the reservoir it appears the pump is working fine.
A big issue with these cars is airflow. You pull the factory grille and you drop ECT by 20 degrees almost immediately. It's also caused by high RPM since short shifting at 6k will drop them 15-20 degrees almost immediately.
If you drop the revs, the system recovers very very quickly so I think the cooling capacity is there, it's either not getting enough airflow over the radiator or cavitation at high RPM is causing it. Another next step we are considering is pulling the A/C condenser to increase airflow to the radiator, but I wanted to investigate the water pump solution first.
I'll look into a larger pulley to slow down the water pump. Any suggestions on where to find one?
Thanks,
Gary"
"I'm sure if you call around the High performance Ford shops someone will have a solution for you pulley We work a lot with Roush racing I would start with them. I don't think an electric pump will work in your application. I think you are right you have a air flow problem removing the condenser will help a bigger radiator will also help. If your engine is supercharged then it could be the higher boost in the engine at the higher RPM. If not then I would look into a larger pulley for the water pump. Remember it will be trade off if you slow the water pump down at hi RPM your also slowing it down at idle and cruse speeds.
Good luck at the races. "
"I am having overheating issues on the road course in my 2012 Boss 302. I've installed the 302S radiator, air-to-oil cooler, Tiger Racing hood and 302S grille and am still seeing high ECTs. The oil is staying cool (240*) but the water continues to run way too hot on hot days (250+) A friend suggested I may be getting cavitation from the stock water pump at high RPM. The Boss redlines at 7500 RPM. Will your model # WP346S work on a 2012 Boss 302 Mustang?
Would it likely solve this cooling issue? Running out of things to try....
Thanks,
Gary"
"Hi Gary,
You Didn't say in your email if the car gets hot while driving on the street.
Our WP346s water pump will not work on the new coyote 5.0 motor as the pump was redesigned for this engine. We do make a new water pump, our WP342s will work on the new coyote motor. This will flow 55gpm which is great for a street/strip raced car. The pump should also work well on a car used for track days that is only going around a road course for a few laps at a time.
If this car is used for more then that I would recommend staying with your belt driven water pump. We normally do not recommend electric water pumps for road racing applications. It may be necessary to slow the water pump rpm down to prevent cavitation, this is done by increasing diameter of the water pump pulley. I would also check to make sure your temperature gauge is reading correctly.
Other things to check. Make sure all the air is out of your cooling system.
Air in the cooling system is the number one issue we find with customers overheating problems. Make sure nothing is in your coolant hoses that could be causing a restriction. I have heard of rags and other debris in the cooling system causing restrictions. Also make sure your water pump is working properly, It could have a damaged impellor that would reduce its ability to pump enough coolant.
Let me know if I could do anything more to help you."
"Coolant temps are just fine on the street. The car has a 170* tstat and water temps on the street are usually in the 180s and 190s after a little spirited driving. I have bled the system several times so I don't think air in the system is an issue. We run this car pretty hard and sessions are usually about 25 minutes (4-8 times a day) so depending on the track you're in the 10-15 lap range per session. The water temp comes up after about 10 minutes typically on hotter days (80+* ambient) Elevation is a factor as temps are running higher in Central NE where it's a 2k ft above sea level, versus at BIR in Brainerd, MN where it's closer to 1000 ft. Watching flow through the reservoir it appears the pump is working fine.
A big issue with these cars is airflow. You pull the factory grille and you drop ECT by 20 degrees almost immediately. It's also caused by high RPM since short shifting at 6k will drop them 15-20 degrees almost immediately.
If you drop the revs, the system recovers very very quickly so I think the cooling capacity is there, it's either not getting enough airflow over the radiator or cavitation at high RPM is causing it. Another next step we are considering is pulling the A/C condenser to increase airflow to the radiator, but I wanted to investigate the water pump solution first.
I'll look into a larger pulley to slow down the water pump. Any suggestions on where to find one?
Thanks,
Gary"
"I'm sure if you call around the High performance Ford shops someone will have a solution for you pulley We work a lot with Roush racing I would start with them. I don't think an electric pump will work in your application. I think you are right you have a air flow problem removing the condenser will help a bigger radiator will also help. If your engine is supercharged then it could be the higher boost in the engine at the higher RPM. If not then I would look into a larger pulley for the water pump. Remember it will be trade off if you slow the water pump down at hi RPM your also slowing it down at idle and cruse speeds.
Good luck at the races. "
I hate to say it but i think we need Ford to fess up on this. Im concerned that one pully size + a/c condenser + track driving + 7500 rpm may not be a possible combo with this car.
Steeda has one that is the same size as stock maybe one of you race guys and get them to make one 10% bigger.
http://www.steeda.com/store/steeda-billet-water-pump-pulley-for-ford-mustang.html
BBK doesn't show anything for the 2012's yet, but wouldn't hurt to give them a call and see about getting one made.
ASP would be another good place to have one made.
https://www.autospecialties.com/ford.html
http://www.steeda.com/store/steeda-billet-water-pump-pulley-for-ford-mustang.html
BBK doesn't show anything for the 2012's yet, but wouldn't hurt to give them a call and see about getting one made.
ASP would be another good place to have one made.
https://www.autospecialties.com/ford.html
- Thread starter
- #45
PeteInCT said:
Maybe? We do make a lot of the issues that arise but in the end most of finish every track day with a car that can be driven on the street in TX heat and AK cold. How many of us have sat on pit road waiting to get on track and turned the air on to cool off for a few minutes, race cars can't do that.
I'm concerned about the rising heat but I still can pull the grille if needed. Besides boxing off the radiator I am also considering making a grille out of 1/4 inch screen. At some point, for you guys that are addicted, you have to consider is it a track car or a car to make a supermarket run. I think Ford did a good job making it both but even they could not make work perfect for the small percent of people tracking very hard. I had many track days before I even saw the temps rise and still I have never hit 250 or had limp mode because of heat.
- 71
- 0
Meziere is crystal on this. Totally good answer. If droping RPM gives intant relief it is not cooling capacity. That means radiator and air flow are good. Also he stated that underdriving the water pump will not be good for street, also partly correct. Driving on the street you can hang in gear and rev higher than normal ( maybe have to rev it once in a while in traffic). Our motors are very new and you guys are the test dummies. On all established hot rod motors you can buy smaller crank pulleys. This is the cheap fix and it works very well. You only have to reduce accesory rpm buy 10 to12 percent to see real benifits. That means for street driving you only need to increase your rpm the same. Ever wonder why hot rodders raise thier idle (even with a small cam) and hang in gear longer? Although our water pump setup is only rated at 6000 rpm that does not mean it quits there, its just giong down hill after that and we have a lot of reserve. Also look up steam doming. Just cavitation miss understood.
I have no problem revving mine around town. Do our cars even rev below 4,000? 
- Thread starter
- #48
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm9DhJtkqRk[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN2QgdsOFNw&feature=channel&list=UL[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN2QgdsOFNw&feature=channel&list=UL[/youtube]
cloud9
Gary
Nice parade of Stangs 8)
The guy in the Silver 03 Cobra is another one of my buddies, Andy Menard from Houston. Cool bunch of guys!
- Thread starter
- #51
Yes, it was a nice collection of American Muscle
For anyone who attended you can get pics from Bob here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bargainbobspics/sets/
For anyone who attended you can get pics from Bob here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bargainbobspics/sets/
- Thread starter
- #52
OK, the last of the pics I promise (sorry I just think it is cool to see all these in one picture) ;D
this one came out nice
this one came out nice
Here's a few more from Sebring.........holy body roll!!!
Very nice. The CO really pops on the track.
- Thread starter
- #55
Good and Bad Part Two
Had another day at Sebring with a different group. The good: weather was great for summer in S.FL but it was HOT, not a drop of rain anywhere near the track. With little cloud cover (not normal) the sun kicked my butt. Even with the heat the car never got into the 240 range, stayed around 233-236 range. Also not that I took advantage of it but few cars out there and lots of clean runs.
The bad, plenty of it. First I got no where close to me best times. Best was 2:40 all day, I was off there is no doubt about that. I don't want to sound like I am making excuses for my driving but had several problems that did not help. We ran long sessions and the Conti/Hoosiers got very slick out there. First session I could not get them to pressure so I added three pounds on three tires. Second morning session started late and only got three laps before a car blew a tire and shut us down so I was unable to get them to pressure and temp again.
After lunch it was much hotter and the pressure was too high on the third run, I let some air out but not enough. Ended up getting the pressure up to 42 in the left sides, you can hear the alarm going off in the vid. Both left tires corded all the way around on the inside about an inch in from the edge. I also ended up cracking a brake pad and had a lot of vibration which you can see in the vid.
The worst part is the shifting, had to fight the car all day to the point my hand was sore. In the middle of the forth session I started to think this trans is done, you can hear how long it takes to shift. Finally I was thinking about getting off track when the car forced me to do so. I was on the back straight when I could barely get it into gear, then in 17 I downshifted to forth and was going to third when it got stuck in neutral, could not get it to go into any gear. The car stalled at this point but I was right in front of pit entrance so I coasted in.
Not knowing what had happened I tried to re-fire it and it would not, I then realized the clutch was stuck half way down (again). Pulled it back up and gave it a few pumps then it fired again. I have no idea what is going on but I have always said this is a trans problem, now I am rethinking that and starting to feel it is a clutch problem like many of you think. The Boss is still a great car and I love it but this problem is making it hard to feel good about driving it on track.
The funny part of all this is hearing how rough this track is while I coasted into the pits at the end of the vid.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12SLputEpyY[/youtube]
Had another day at Sebring with a different group. The good: weather was great for summer in S.FL but it was HOT, not a drop of rain anywhere near the track. With little cloud cover (not normal) the sun kicked my butt. Even with the heat the car never got into the 240 range, stayed around 233-236 range. Also not that I took advantage of it but few cars out there and lots of clean runs.
The bad, plenty of it. First I got no where close to me best times. Best was 2:40 all day, I was off there is no doubt about that. I don't want to sound like I am making excuses for my driving but had several problems that did not help. We ran long sessions and the Conti/Hoosiers got very slick out there. First session I could not get them to pressure so I added three pounds on three tires. Second morning session started late and only got three laps before a car blew a tire and shut us down so I was unable to get them to pressure and temp again.
After lunch it was much hotter and the pressure was too high on the third run, I let some air out but not enough. Ended up getting the pressure up to 42 in the left sides, you can hear the alarm going off in the vid. Both left tires corded all the way around on the inside about an inch in from the edge. I also ended up cracking a brake pad and had a lot of vibration which you can see in the vid.
The worst part is the shifting, had to fight the car all day to the point my hand was sore. In the middle of the forth session I started to think this trans is done, you can hear how long it takes to shift. Finally I was thinking about getting off track when the car forced me to do so. I was on the back straight when I could barely get it into gear, then in 17 I downshifted to forth and was going to third when it got stuck in neutral, could not get it to go into any gear. The car stalled at this point but I was right in front of pit entrance so I coasted in.
Not knowing what had happened I tried to re-fire it and it would not, I then realized the clutch was stuck half way down (again). Pulled it back up and gave it a few pumps then it fired again. I have no idea what is going on but I have always said this is a trans problem, now I am rethinking that and starting to feel it is a clutch problem like many of you think. The Boss is still a great car and I love it but this problem is making it hard to feel good about driving it on track.
The funny part of all this is hearing how rough this track is while I coasted into the pits at the end of the vid.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12SLputEpyY[/youtube]
Scott are you gonna try and remove the clutch assist spring?
- Thread starter
- #57
fduboss302 said:
No, not to sound like a jerk but if I tried every fix on this and other forums I would be into this for four grand and many hours of labor. I am lucky to have a good dealer and Ford is actively working with them to fix things. If it turns out that that someone comes up with a 100% sure fix I will go that route. However for now I need to see how long each fix people try will last, sounds like Peter is on to something and I trust what he is saying I just want to see it hold up over time.
When I put the high flow line on my car it seemed to solve the clutch sticking down problem. After all I had many days on track to test it, sadly now it is back.
- 102
- 0
Scott, Please keep us informed of what your Ford dealer finds. I've reported the same "clutch problem", like so many others, and Ford still doesn't have a fix.
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