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How To Go From Staggered To Square

If one wanted to go from the current staggered setup thats on the car to a square setup.........what would one have to do?

Please give a step by step process and/or parts list to do so.

Hoping a post on this matter helps guide others on the Forum Board on this if they so desire.
 
If you go to a square setup without any suspension changes, you will induce oversteer. To rebalance the car, there are many ways to skin that cat. The simplest and least costly way is to change to an adjustable front sway bar on a stiffer setting or go to a softer (smaller) rear bar. Cortex recommends adding grip where it's needed versus taking it away, so under that premise go to a smaller rear bar.

Here's a great list from Cortex Racing's website:

Symptom: Rear Oversteer (car is loose)

Rear Changes: Begin here first
1.Lower rear watts pivot (roll center)
2.Soften rear ARB (smaller diameter or remove completely)
3.Softer rear springs
4.Decrease shock can pressure (Nitrogen reservoirs if you have them)
5.Lower rear ride height (useful for fine tuning after the springs and ARBs are about right)
6.Change tire pressure (Also useful for fine tuning)
7.Adjust compression/rebound settings of front or rear shocks (this only works when suspension is moving such as entering or exiting corner. Steady state cornering (i.e. long sweeper corners require geometry or spring rate adjustments)
8.If oversteer is at high speeds only, increase wing angle.


http://www.cortexracing.com/tuning-guide/
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
Everything Gary said is correct.

However, with a stock Boss, it can be as simple as changing the rear bar to a 24mm GT bar or any other smaller rear bar up to removing it completely.
 
Has anybody experienced the difference between going stock GT vs V6 rear sway bar? Assuming the V6 stock bar ( I think on brembo package ) is even smaller than GT one.
 

pufferfish

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Assuming stock suspension, simply addressing the wheel hop can balance out the suspension after going square. UCA or LCA's will help plant the rear.
 
The nice thing about removing the rear bar is, at least from what I have read in rule books, it will not bump you into another AutoX class (wider tires might, though). And for my club, COMSCC, time trial car classes are assessed by adding points for each individual mod on top of the points assessed for the car as stock. IIRC, removing the bar might actually subtract a point or two to offset the points from the extra rubber on the front. At the worst, i it is point and money neutral, but still improves the performance. That is at least my idea.
 
WinterSucks said:
The nice thing about removing the rear bar is, at least from what I have read in rule books, it will not bump you into another AutoX class (wider tires might, though). And for my club, COMSCC, time trial car classes are assessed by adding points for each individual mod on top of the points assessed for the car as stock. IIRC, removing the bar might actually subtract a point or two to offset the points from the extra rubber on the front. At the worst, i it is point and money neutral, but still improves the performance. That is at least my idea.
I think if the only change you make other than squaring up the tires is to completely remove the rear bar it's going to plow, but you could try it. I drove a GT that had the rear bar disconnected on a square setup at Chuckwalla last year and it under-steered.
 
I went square without any modifications, I just put the rear shocks 1-click softer than the fronts and the oversteer becomes pretty manageable. So, don't be afraid to try square setup with the stock suspension. However, depending on the turn, the square setup with stock suspension may hold you back from going on the throttle early.
 
cloud9 said:
I think if the only change you make other than squaring up the tires is to completely remove the rear bar it's going to plow, but you could try it. I drove a GT that had the rear bar disconnected on a square setup at Chuckwalla last year and it under-steered.

Good to know, too drastic. I will have to look at how it is mitigated on the 302S, since they run without it. That may have been addressed in one of the other topics about lower control arm brackets.
 
WinterSucks said:
Good to know, too drastic. I will have to look at how it is mitigated on the 302S, since they run without it. That may have been addressed in one of the other topics about lower control arm brackets.

you can eliminate the rear sway bar, if you compensate for it with higher spring rate springs, which may be what the 302S/R does.
 
You should not compare our cars with the 302S/R. The suspension setups are not the same.

Be very careful about going square with no suspension modifications. Gary did it and his car over steered badly. Most add more bar in the front, reduce the bar in the rear, or both. I run my car much softer in rear with a staggered setup and would still like more grip. I drove the same car as Gary last year and the no bar car did push but it hooked up really well on full throttle corner exit. :eek:
 

Domestic Product

Big fat tires and everything !
NFSBOSS said:
You should not compare our cars with the 302S/R. The suspension setups are not the same.

Be very careful about going square with no suspension modifications. Gary did it and his car over steered badly. Most add more bar in the front, reduce the bar in the rear, or both. I run my car much softer in rear with a staggered setup and would still like more grip. I drove the same car as Gary last year and the no bar car did push but it hooked up really well on full throttle corner exit. :eek:

Rick is right on as usual. Assuming you are tracking the car. Imo, the Boss needs more sway bar not less. Bite the bullet and get a set of aftermarket adjustable sway bars front and rear. I have the Whiteline set on order for just this reason. I can go staggered or square with a couple quick adjustments. I can raise the overall level and keep the ratio front to rear where I need it.
 

Mad Hatter

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Not to go against any of the more advanced comments, but going square worked for me by putting the rear on 3 and the fronts on 5. Adding P springs, LCA and bracket certainly helped *make sure you them all together if you lower the car!). Actually I went with Dunlops Dirreza IIs 275/35-19 which are stickier then the stock OEM tires and about as wide as t. Under-steer basically went away completely. Maybe I should look at big sway bars as several members have told me.... (and bigger slicks!)
 
Mad Hatter said:
Not to go against any of the more advanced comments, but going square worked for me by putting the rear on 3 and the fronts on 5. Adding P springs, LCA and bracket certainly helped *make sure you them all together if you lower the car!). Actually I went with Dunlops Dirreza IIs 275/35-19 which are stickier then the stock OEM tires and about as wide as t. Under-steer basically went away completely. Maybe I should look at big sway bars as several members have told me.... (and bigger slicks!)
The OP is asking about the easiest way to run square vs staggered on an otherwise stock suspension. Your setup is quite different than stock with the stiffer lowering springs and rear LCAs. If you just slap a square setup on this otherwise stock car and drive it near the limit, it will oversteer significantly. If a driver is inexperienced, he could have the car swapping ends, especially mid-corner, very quickly. When I first got the Boss I slapped on the cooling ducts, track pads and fluid and some track wheels and 275 r-comp tires on all four corners. I ran a few sessions and said the heck with this and threw two 305s on the back and the car returned to neutral. I didn't spin the car, but knew it was VERY close to coming around on several occasions especially on high speed sweepers. This was not throttle induced oversteer, but suspension driven. I could not dial it out with damper adjustments.
 
I am all stock suspension and tires ( except cc plate), do you guys think that I will improve the rear traction by putting stock rear GT bar?
That was suggested to me by Dean Martin, Rehagen racing ( not the singer) :D
 
I am thankful for all the posts and comments on this topic! I sure hope it helps those who are considering a change from staggered to square.

The reason I posted was because I'm considering a purchase of 4 tires from Rehagen Racing which are all 275's. I'd put all four on the car but would not change the suspension any. What problems would I come across?

I'm trying not to use the set of BFG Rivals I have on the car now other than occasional autocross and daily driving. Have always wanted to try slicks but am apprehensive in doing so because of the lack of experience running on them. I've got a 2-day track event coming in May so need to decide on something soon.
 
This might not be the correct thread to post this, but I set the rear dampers settings to 1 and the front to 5 and I can tell you I really noticed that the rear tires are more planted and with more "articulation" if that is the right word.
 
For those that are going square and simply adjusting with shock settings, you're probably ok in mild driving and track conditions, but at the limit when you're rotating the car through turns, I think you're going to have more oversteer than you can handle. Do yourself a favor and just get a nice front sway bar. I've got the massive Strano front sway. If you have a drop, be sure to get the adjustable end links. Mine is on full stiff with the stock rear sway. The aftermarket rear adjustable sway bars are actually softer than the stock boss rear sway. Apparently stiffer isn't always better, but my setup works well. My rear Konis are a bit softer than the fronts.

http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php?PartID=608&CategoryID=200&ModelID=35

PS. I love my 295 18 square BFG Rival setup for the track.
 
Yeah, it's pretty simple, but whomever suggested removing the rear sway is probably most right. I just don't have the balls to do that for the track. Even on a full stiff front and softer back shocks, the back slips out quite a bit. I am planning to get the rear Strano adjustable sway bar and tune. In other words, I'll start with the stiffest setting and keep softening until the understeer kicks in.
 

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