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Huge brake upgrade for S197 chassis

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
4,865
3,718
Santiago, Chile
Thats the odd part, I do not feel the dead space with the initial braking. Even leaving the parking lot on the way to the track with cold brakes... It stops well from the get go with R18 or RST3 pads. On the other one of the S197 cars we did down here do complain about the brakes, but that was with a street pad. Don't no why its not an issue with me......
 
270
413
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
3-5 Years
Wisconsin
Thats the odd part, I do not feel the dead space with the initial braking. Even leaving the parking lot on the way to the track with cold brakes... It stops well from the get go with R18 or RST3 pads. On the other one of the S197 cars we did down here do complain about the brakes, but that was with a street pad. Don't no why its not an issue with me......

Could be the R18. I have the 12's and its exists.
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
4,865
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Santiago, Chile
Yes, that could very well be the issue. Both the R18 and RST3 are aggressive track pads. I did try the R12 before, but was not very fond of them.. They wore out very quickly on my old 14" brembo setup.
 
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Appreciate the replies and honest straightforward feedback, as I am trying to figure out options while you guys and lots of others on here have actual real-world experience. Thank you.

I'm not trying to argue. But after going through most of this thread pretty carefully, the sometimes wonky brake pedal is my biggest hesitation. So I'm trying to understand if there is any performance advantage to the S550 6 pot calipers versus the S197 6 pot calipers from the 13/14 GT500, assuming they both are available and roughly the same price (which I know has not always been the case since this thread was started many years ago), and assuming also similar pad compounds and rotors. Is there something about the extra volume of the S550 6 pot calipers that gives a performance benefit?

Thanks again for the replies, it's helpful.
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
4,865
3,718
Santiago, Chile
I guess one way to look at it.... Is that ford could have put the gt500 brakes on the S550 and saved some money,. But they went ahead and put the Bigger pads of the newer Brembo setup for a reason. Pad choice is more limited in the GT500 setup and will be more so in the future since they only ran for 2013 and 2014.. Big pads means less wear and less frequent changes of what are already expensive pads. More friction surface gives better stopping ability assuming that the pressure from both MC's is relatively close... As you can tell I really love these brakes. The Porsches have a hard time getting there heads around it that a mustang just out braked them
 
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CA
What is the advantage of the s550 setup when the 13/14 GT500 setup is available with very affordable calipers and rotors? With the GT500 calipers you get all the advantages of a longer torque arm and bigger heat sink with the 15" versus 14" rotors.... but without the problems with the master cylinder and brake pedal. Surface area of the brake pads shouldn't make a difference in braking performance, correct?

It seems clear the s550 6 pots are bigger volume and don't work well with the s197 MC. In their writeup on the s550 6 pot Brembo swap, Vorshlag notes that you really need to change the MC even on the s550 if you make this upgrade. Scroll about 3/4 down to their 1/21/21 update: https://www.vorshlag.com/forums/for...0-brakes-uses-limitaitons-and-upgrade-options

But the correct MC setup isn't available for s197 at least not without a ton of work. Yes, the 13/14 GT500 pads are smaller and don't sweep the entire rotor, but that seems like more of a visual problem than a performance one and a small price to pay compared to the MC problem and screwed up brake pedal? Is anyone running the s550 setup on an s197 without the brake pedal issues? What am I missing here?
From OP msutang, the pads are the same price for either setup:

1669676494126.png

I have the S550 6p on my 09'. The car stops, but the pedal feel isn't great. After some practice, I have gotten used to the setup, and don't feel it would be worth it to change to 6p GT500.

I will also comment that my brakes last an extremely long time....I got 16 events out of my pads in my 290whp, ~3600lb time attack s197. Usually hitting around 1.35g under braking. I am not sure the same life expectancy could be expected for the smaller GT500 6p pads.
 
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HPDE
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5-10 Years
Lenoir City TN
I went with the S550 calipers over the GT 500 calipers due to availability and cost at the time. When I was looking the S550 pads were cheaper, the calipers cost less and the the calipers were available. I don't really notice any lag or dead spot, but it does take a bit more movement on the pedal to engage the brakes. I find the the action better than the 4 piston 14" Brembo's I had before. The little slower activation is a better match for my fast stab at the brakes. I am using the same GLoc R16 pads as before.
 
1,251
1,044
Exp. Type
HPDE
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5-10 Years
Philly Metro Area
there was no way I was going that deep.
While it probably won't match an S550 6P, you might want to try the R16 pads. I used the R12s and they actually felt worse (less bite but quieter & cleaner) than my previous PowerStop Track Day pads. I then tried the R16 pads and was happy again. I swap to GS1s for the street.

A side benefit of going to the R16s in the front with the R12s in the back is that it may provide better "balance" instead of square R12s.

Edit:. GLOC R12 = CarboTech XP12
GLOC R16 = CarboTech XP20
 

Boone

Professional Thread Killer
While it probably won't match an S550 6P, you might want to try the R16 pads. I used the R12s and they actually felt worse (less bite but quieter & cleaner) than my previous PowerStop Track Day pads. I then tried the R16 pads and was happy again. I swap to GS1s for the street.

A side benefit of going to the R16s in the front with the R12s in the back is that it may provide better "balance" instead of square R12s.

Edit:. GLOC R12 = CarboTech XP12
GLOC R16 = CarboTech XP20
I'm on the same page with pads. I already procured CT XP20 up front (4P Brembo) and XP12 in the rear (stock 1P). I'm going through the entire brake system to make 2023 the last chance for the current setup. If I can't get what I want from a fresh start with this setup, I'll look at moving my brake components into this decade.
 
1,251
1,044
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
Philly Metro Area
If you're using the Ford brake cooling kit, the other thing you may want to consider is getting new rotor backing plates with oval ducts instead of the round ducts. The oval ducts direct more air directly into the eye of the rotor instead of half hitting the rotor surface.

Chicane23 & Vorshlag sell such backing plates.

Vorshlag also sells air deflectors that replace the duct & hose set-up. I haven't tried that but others on TMO have liked it. But most using it may be S550 owners.

Edit:. Brake inlet ducts still required to aim airflow toward the deflectors.
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
4,865
3,718
Santiago, Chile
I'm tuning in to this thread. I'm still running my "upgraded" 4P Brembos, and I'm not sure that is going to work long term for me. I was running with some 6P Front and 4P back cars on my last track day, and there was no way I was going that deep.
I think the original 4pot brembos on my Boss were great, combined with some Pagid RST3 or RSL29 pads they really worked well. BUT, once you go over 135mph you certainly can see and feel the benefits of the 15" setup. Not to mention that you get less fade and can count on the brakes for longer.
 

Boone

Professional Thread Killer
I do feel I'm at the limit of the 4P capabilities, even with the Boss 302 brake duct kit on my '05 GT. I want to see how this "fresh start" will perform. VIR will see 100mph drops twice per lap, and CMP is traditionally hard on brakes. There's time and distance to get them cooled down at both venues, but I'm right at 4,000 pounds (car and driver) and over 600hp, so that is the challenge.
 
13
21
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
South Carolina
I have all the bits for this upgrade but I can't get them to fit together. Instead of the Ford Racing/Motorcraft clip kits I sourced the clips and pins from LMR, using a part # (LRS-18225) posted on a different list (s197forum). The LMR kit includes pins and clips for both sides, but no cross-bolt; and costs less than half the discounted price for one side of the genuine Ford parts. I also bought Hawk pads. The pins and pads fit perfectly inside the Brembo calipers, but for the life of me I cannot get the anti-rattle clip on. The crosspiece on the short (lower) end fouls on the pad ears. While I am no professional mechanic, this is far from my first brake install. I could be a klutz and just don't know what I'm doing, but it seems like a pure fitment issue. Before I "spring" for the Motorcraft bits I'd like to know if anyone else encountered this problem.

What's the verdict? Am I:
  • a dumbass for buying cheap chinese parts?
  • a numbnut who clearly has no clue what he's doing?
  • neither--errybody has this issue with LMR.
Thanks as always for the wealth of info on this forum.
 
13
21
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
South Carolina
I have all the bits for this upgrade but I can't get them to fit together. Instead of the Ford Racing/Motorcraft clip kits I sourced the clips and pins from LMR, using a part # (LRS-18225) posted on a different list (s197forum). The LMR kit includes pins and clips for both sides, but no cross-bolt; and costs less than half the discounted price for one side of the genuine Ford parts. I also bought Hawk pads. The pins and pads fit perfectly inside the Brembo calipers, but for the life of me I cannot get the anti-rattle clip on. The crosspiece on the short (lower) end fouls on the pad ears. While I am no professional mechanic, this is far from my first brake install. I could be a klutz and just don't know what I'm doing, but it seems like a pure fitment issue. Before I "spring" for the Motorcraft bits I'd like to know if anyone else encountered this problem.

What's the verdict? Am I:
  • a dumbass for buying cheap chinese parts?
  • a numbnut who clearly has no clue what he's doing?
  • neither--errybody has this issue with LMR.
Thanks as always for the wealth of info on this forum.
BTW, I had a narrow window of opportunity to order this kit. Mrs. Claus surprised me a couple day before Christmas with the green light. OP Mustang was closed for the holidays and I wanted to buy before she changed her mind. Next time, Tim. I have learned my lesson.
 
1,153
1,132
In the V6L
I have all the bits for this upgrade but I can't get them to fit together. Instead of the Ford Racing/Motorcraft clip kits I sourced the clips and pins from LMR, using a part # (LRS-18225) posted on a different list (s197forum). The LMR kit includes pins and clips for both sides, but no cross-bolt; and costs less than half the discounted price for one side of the genuine Ford parts. I also bought Hawk pads. The pins and pads fit perfectly inside the Brembo calipers, but for the life of me I cannot get the anti-rattle clip on. The crosspiece on the short (lower) end fouls on the pad ears. While I am no professional mechanic, this is far from my first brake install. I could be a klutz and just don't know what I'm doing, but it seems like a pure fitment issue. Before I "spring" for the Motorcraft bits I'd like to know if anyone else encountered this problem.

What's the verdict? Am I:
  • a dumbass for buying cheap chinese parts?
  • a numbnut who clearly has no clue what he's doing?
  • neither--errybody has this issue with LMR.
Thanks as always for the wealth of info on this forum.
You haven't provided quite enough information for me to be able to help you. Maybe others can. I looked up the part from LMR and it's plain vanilla springs and pins for Brembo calipers. If you have the calipers that the kit is intended for, it should work just fine. If the pins fit but the springs don't, then you probably have the wrong kit for your specific calipers. Depending on the model year, Brembo calipers for Fords are not all the same. Which exact calipers are you using?
 
13
21
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
South Carolina
You haven't provided quite enough information for me to be able to help you. Maybe others can. I looked up the part from LMR and it's plain vanilla springs and pins for Brembo calipers. If you have the calipers that the kit is intended for, it should work just fine. If the pins fit but the springs don't, then you probably have the wrong kit for your specific calipers. Depending on the model year, Brembo calipers for Fords are not all the same. Which exact calipers are you using?
I bought remanufactured Motorcraft ## BRCF430 and BRCF431 from Rock Auto. They are identified as 2015+ Mustang PP calipers.
 

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