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Idle Speculation on S650 Performance

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The big reveal of the S650 was Sept 14th, and I missed most of it - there just wasn't a lot of information on it - if you look at https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en.html, it's all pretty vague stuff, really. Want a picture of the engine bay? Sorry, not available...

What does stand out is the really big message on the S650: "In a world without Camaro's and Chargers, WE'RE IT!" And, on that basis, the new product line is really interesting.

First, there are three basic levels - grocery getter sportscar (EcoBoost and GT), real sports car (Dark Horse, two variants) and then FOUR trailer-only models. Four? Really? DH S => HPDE, DH R => club racing, GT4 => IMSA, and GT3 => FIA.

So what does that tell me? Well, first, it means Ford is taking their performance car opportunity seriously. They absolutely are going after Porsche. They benchmarked the GT350/GT500 against the Porsche GT3/GT2, and this time around, they look like they've setting out to come out ahead. And, I used to joke that real Porsche enthusiasts all drove F350's with towing packages. Looks like real Mustang enthusiasts will have to go shopping for a Super Duty too. Maybe Ford will offer an F350 Dark Horse model.

Anyway, kidding aside, my expectations are that the S650 platform will be a pretty thorough re-think of the S550. The baseline suspension design and geometry will be built to handle at a level that's hard to reach with an S550. Driveline cooling will be vastly better, even at the bottom of the product line. Chassis stiffness will be a significant upgrade. The list will go on from there. The biggest question I came away with on the launch material is which cars are FP and which ones are Ford? There's no indication. If the Dark Horse is FP, then it will be spectacular - FP engineering knowhow and thoroughness applied to a more capable chassis. If it's mainstream Ford, well, expect some hair-tearing moments with AdvanceTrak and driveline cooling that's finally good enough after a bunch of mods.

In any case, my conclusion is that liking the shape and the interior is optional, but there will be a lot to like in the chassis and driveline. Here's hoping...
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
4,671
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Santiago, Chile
Happy that ford gave new life to the Mustang and am sure that it will have lots of improvements... But a little disappointed with the generic looks, especially up front. Will be interesting to see what engine upgrades will be compatible with early coyote generations. The manifold and double CAI sounds pretty promising.

Did not like the interior much, but then again us olde farts never like anything too tech looking.

As far as being a performance bargain, I'm positive it will not disappoint!
 
Here's a picture of the new dual intake layout with the dual throttle body as leaked earlier. Some state that this change is across all Coyote options, while others seem to attribute it just to the Dark Horse model.
1663352524198.png

During the event, they mentioned that this would be a Gen 4 Coyote. I haven't seen any specific changes mentioned publicly, but I would assume there would have to be a gamut of small changes to legitimize calling it a new generation (some articles mention that the Gen 4 may borrow some of the internals from the Predator engine, like how the Gen 2 borrowed from the Roadrunner). So far from what has been released, the Ecoboost and GT are getting 'a 6-speed Getrag with rev match' (Likely the current MT82) while the Dark Horse model is getting the TR-3160 (with a cooler) for manual transmissions while you can opt for 'a 10-speed' (I'd also assume a 10R80 carryover) as an automatic. The GT will have a Performance Pack that matches what's on offer today with Brembo brake upgrades and the such, while the Dark Horse will be available with a Handling Pack that increases bar diameters, spring rates, and wears Pirelli Trofeo tires (under the same umbrella as what we see with the Mach 1 currently between the standard and handling package tiers).

Like they said during the event, it's more an evolution than a revolution. From everything they have said on stage and released thus far, performance-wise it sounds more like them refining the recipe with on-hand ingredients rather than starting from scratch.
 
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In the V6L
Well, regardless of intake setup (it looks very "BMW E39 M5" to me), power out of an NA engine is all about RPM. The BMW E92 M3 got 420 HP from a 4 liter V8 at 8300 RPM and the GT350 gets 526 HP from a 5.2 liter V8 at 8250 RPM. I'm thinking that 500 HP from a 5.0 liter V8 will take 8000+ RPM to get it done.
 
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MD
Is it fair to say that the DH S is comparable to the FP350S?
By the time it is released, my track experience will have matured another 2-3 years and the s550 would be a track only car.

I am interested in the DH-S to replace it but if it is going with FP350S pricing I’m assuming it will be at least $120k.
 

JDee

Ancient Racer
1,516
1,540
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
halfway between Mosport and Shannonville
I'm likely not a customer because of the weight issue.
The 550 is already lardy, though mine is prolly one of the lightest GTs around due to lack of options, it has PP1 and nothing else and is around 3400 lbs with gutted interior and light racing seats. But it still is heavier than I would like and that's my current focus, reducing weight.
The published weight for the 650 is 3900 lbs. That's a non starter for me.
Secondarily, I'm not a fan of the styling, it's seems like it's just gimmicks without much purpose.
They'll probably sell very well, just not likely to me. :)
 
221
173
MD
I'm likely not a customer because of the weight issue.
The 550 is already lardy, though mine is prolly one of the lightest GTs around due to lack of options, it has PP1 and nothing else and is around 3400 lbs with gutted interior and light racing seats. But it still is heavier than I would like and that's my current focus, reducing weight.
The published weight for the 650 is 3900 lbs. That's a non starter for me.
Secondarily, I'm not a fan of the styling, it's seems like it's just gimmicks without much purpose.
They'll probably sell very well, just not likely to me. :)
I mentioned this is another forum but it certainly looks heavy. So I'm assuming the power to weight ratio may be similar to that of a s550?
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
4,671
3,388
Santiago, Chile
Looking at the AED gen3 block builds, getting to 500hp at the crank should be relatively easy. Mine is around 580hp at 7800rpm and Sal's must be around the same (maybe higher rpm?). I remember that Shaun from AED said not to go overboard on the head porting as the CJ manifold would be the limiting factor before the heads. This new manifold might change that.
 
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I'm likely not a customer because of the weight issue.
The 550 is already lardy, though mine is prolly one of the lightest GTs around due to lack of options, it has PP1 and nothing else and is around 3400 lbs with gutted interior and light racing seats. But it still is heavier than I would like and that's my current focus, reducing weight.
The published weight for the 650 is 3900 lbs. That's a non starter for me.
Secondarily, I'm not a fan of the styling, it's seems like it's just gimmicks without much purpose.
They'll probably sell very well, just not likely to me. :)

Agree. The weight of a carbon GT500, but slower overall you would think.
 
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Exp. Type
HPDE
MN
Here's a picture of the new dual intake layout with the dual throttle body as leaked earlier. Some state that this change is across all Coyote options, while others seem to attribute it just to the Dark Horse model.
View attachment 79106

During the event, they mentioned that this would be a Gen 4 Coyote. I haven't seen any specific changes mentioned publicly, but I would assume there would have to be a gamut of small changes to legitimize calling it a new generation (some articles mention that the Gen 4 may borrow some of the internals from the Predator engine, like how the Gen 2 borrowed from the Roadrunner). So far from what has been released, the Ecoboost and GT are getting 'a 6-speed Getrag with rev match' (Likely the current MT82) while the Dark Horse model is getting the TR-3160 (with a cooler) for manual transmissions while you can opt for 'a 10-speed' (I'd also assume a 10R80 carryover) as an automatic. The GT will have a Performance Pack that matches what's on offer today with Brembo brake upgrades and the such, while the Dark Horse will be available with a Handling Pack that increases bar diameters, spring rates, and wears Pirelli Trofeo tires (under the same umbrella as what we see with the Mach 1 currently between the standard and handling package tiers).

Like they said during the event, it's more an evolution than a revolution. From everything they have said on stage and released thus far, performance-wise it sounds more like them refining the recipe with on-hand ingredients rather than starting from scratch.
I would agree, that this is more of a refresh and not a re-engineer. I would love to hear that the chassis was completely re-engineered, but until I hear it from Ford, I'm assuming not. I believe this gen to be a precursor to the coming EV, with styling clues straight from the Mach E and the majority of the DH model being a carryover of the Mach 1.

On a side note, I find it hard to believe Ford will be the only ICE powered muscle car manufacturer in the US. I know what the news says, but I cant help but wonder if someone isn't being rather coy with their future plans. Why would they all just hand over a complete market to a competitor?
 

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