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S197 Learning True Car Control

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125
112
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Ann Arbor, MI
Merry Christmas and blessed 2022 to you all.

After a year of driving on track, which has been a blast, I'm looking for ways to test the limits of my car and learn to recover from various situations when those limits have been breached.

I'm thinking of overbraking, understeer, oversteer, maybe learning to drift?

Also, when I used to fly, not only did we practice different manuevers, which helped us to become capable pilots that could really control the aircraft, but we also practiced how to manage various emergency situations, which for cars would be loss of brakes, loss of power, fire in one or another part of the car, etc. As an example, over the couse of my first year of track time, I've talked to several experienced drivers about a sudden and total loss of braking and no one has had much of an answer as to what one should do (cut power, use an emergency brake if you have one, pucker up and say cheese...). While we all think/do a lot to prevent loss of braking from ever happening, just as one example, it seems like there'd be some consensus out there on what to do in various undesired situations - I suspect professional drivers know all this but what about Joe Shmoe at a time trial?

Since flying is so safety aware and highly regulated in terms of a pilot's knowledge and capabilities, there were set procedures you just had to know. It seems like some, certainly not all, of that would be helpful in the HPDE to W2W world, where a driver is familiar with managing various situations through practicing understeer etc. Even better, the best pilots imo were the ones who did some aerobatics training - not to do that in the air, but to have been exposed to unexpected situations and what we called "unusual attitudes" so that you had some prior experience to draw on if a similar situation arose in flight. I know I'd be so much more comfortable as a driver if I could not only heel toe with the best of them but put my car into one or another turn just the way I wanted it, maybe with a touch of understeer on one and a bit of oversteer on another, exiting it the way I hoped.

Maybe a "performance driving school" could do the trick? If so, which ones have TMO members been to and which would they recommend? Is there some other way to this goal? I'd love to use the high school parking lot nearby, but I know what will happen there and that could cost me more than a driving school fee if the principal or smokey bear decides to interfere with my education.
 

JDee

Ancient Racer
1,797
2,001
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
5 miles from Mosport
They do any ice racing in Michigan? Up here it's a thing, people use beater cars as there's lots of contact and horsepower means nothing on ice if you're not running in a stud class. You get lots of practice with car control in a pretty safe, soft landing setting where the speeds are modest and the snowbanks are soft.

When you're on ice the edge between having grip and gone into the snow bank is razor thin. If you can master that tiny window, the grip window on pavement seems huge. Super cheap to boot, you can run an entire 6 weekend winter season pretty much on the cost of 1 track day.
 
741
1,075
TX
If you can get seat time in a Miata, you'll progress quickly. Miata's require being in a decent amount of slip angle constantly to be fast--it'll translate to your mustang very well. Double points if you can get in a Miata during a rainy track day. I spent a handful of events in 2020 in a Miata and my apex speeds went up noticeably in almost all corners.
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
984
1,277
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
I'm going to recommend autocross as well. Every event has a different course, so it makes you learn how to find "the line" quickly during the course walks, as well as teaching you to look (and think) ahead when driving. You can overdrive the car, within reason, and experiment without much downside consequence. Take advantage of any instructors or ride-alongs with veteran drivers. Just remember that autocross is typically run-work - just as you depend on workers on the course to shag cones and in the timing trailer to keep score, those people depend on you doing your work shifts when they run.
 
303
371
CA
I started autocrossing miatas when I was 16, didn't do a track day event until I was 23. Without a doubt, autocross is the best for learning car control. The only thing it doesn't teach you is long, hard, controlled braking. That is something that only seat time on track can teach you.

I learned a lot about car control in my 2 years of track driving no doubt, but it came at a significant cost and danger level compared to autocrossing.
 
741
1,075
TX
I might have an unpopular opinion, but I didn't find autocross to help as much as I thought it would based on the enthusiasm it's recommended online. Maybe I overhyped it in my head, but it's a very different discipline than road course work. It can build overly aggressive braking and turning habits, IMHO.

It's a good tool and definitely recommended, but I still personally feel that a Miata is the best overall tool to build skills on. Cheap, easy (to drive, not necessarily quickly), super fun, and literally anyone who is fast in a Miata will crush in a faster car.
 
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106
52
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
So CA
I might have an unpopular opinion, but I didn't find autocross to help as much as I thought it would based on the enthusiasm it's recommended online. Maybe I overhyped it in my head, but it's a very difference discipline than road course work. It can build overly aggressive braking and turning habits, IMHO.

It's a good tool and definitely recommended, but I still personally feel that a Miata is the best overall tool to build skills on. Cheap, easy (to drive, not necessarily quickly), super fun, and literally anyone who is fast in a Miata will crush in a faster car.

I started with autocross many years ago, got to 2nd place regionally. I think it does help on tighter courses where quick reflexes are needed, finding the braking limits and balancing the car on tight turns and being smooth with momentum. Also tracked on a Mazdaspeed Miata briefly, again best car for learning limits and MOMENTUM, which can make you faster in ANY car. Also true being in a Miata is, you will be passed often if running in a faster group, but that's the beauty, learning how to handle traffic around you. Good luck, make sure your track day promoter has levels of run groups (no passing lead-follow novice, limited point-by passing, open passing)
 
I have suffered brake failures twice in my driving career of over 26 years. The first time was at VIR during a press drive for the 2003 SVT Cobra. I lost the brakes at 90 MPH on a press car that was wired with a Pi Data Logging system. Data logger showed I had 8 psi in the front, and 1200 psi in the rear. At 90 MPH I put the brakes on at the third braking marker going into the first turn and the pedal went to the floor. After a couple of pumps on the pedal and not getting any pressure build-up, I straightened the wheel and went off the track straight. I blipped the throttle and flicked the car around 180-degrees to make the back wheels the front since they would then be able to provide the most braking. I was able to save the car and myself.

The second time I lost brakes was in November 2019. That time I had video of the entire event. At 121 MPH I lost brakes. I pumped the brakes a couple of times and couldn't build pressure. I activated the emergency brake in an attempt to see if there was a change in deceleration rate (if the car slowed down more then I would know there was a hydraulic failure and the mechanical brakes would provide some braking, if not then I would know that they system was already working at max capacity.). The next course of action was to try to use the gravel trap to try to slow the car, but when I turned to try to go through it I could tell I would possibly end up in the gravel trap sideways which would end up causing a roll-over. Finally I decided to use the exit road to the skid pad, but I didn't know how much runoff room I had so I knew I needed to slow down. I went through the gravel trap straight and hit the exit road, but there was some lateral G-force from the maneuver which caused a spin when the outside wheels hit the grass. This was a blessing in disguise as it caused the car to slow down much more quickly.
Both of these events had the potential to be lethal, yet somehow I survived. There were a few takeaways:
  1. Keeping calm is absolutely critical.
    1. If you panic you will get target fixated and stop coming up with options for success.
    2. Making the conscious decision that you are NOT going to fail is also important.
  2. Look where you want to go.
  3. The front brakes do 75% of your braking, if you can spin the car around and make the back brakes the front brakes that may help.
  4. Getting the car into a controlled spin kills tons of speed, just make sure you go both feet in if you resort to this option, whether by chance or by choice.
  5. Knowing the track you're at and what potential options are available is important. If you don't know the track well, you should probably only be doing about 7/10ths at most.
  6. DO NOT GIVE UP!

 
125
112
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Ann Arbor, MI
They do any ice racing in Michigan? Up here it's a thing, people use beater cars as there's lots of contact and horsepower means nothing on ice if you're not running in a stud class. You get lots of practice with car control in a pretty safe, soft landing setting where the speeds are modest and the snowbanks are soft.
I know there’s an SCCA event or two in the winter in SE Michigan, looks like a lot of fun and you’re right - cars are dirt cheap. Nice idea JDee, and quite usable this time of yea.
 
125
112
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Ann Arbor, MI
If you can get seat time in a Miata, you'll progress quickly. Miata's require being in a decent amount of slip angle constantly to be fast--it'll translate to your mustang very well. Double points if you can get in a Miata during a rainy track day. I spent a handful of events in 2020 in a Miata and my apex speeds went up noticeably in almost all corners.
I’ve always heard that’s a great way to go, an excellent way to learn how to drive on track. I actually looked into purchasing a race spec Miata but could not pass up the car I have now. If the occasion arises, I’ll take it.
 
125
112
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Ann Arbor, MI
I have suffered brake failures twice in my driving career of over 26 years. The first time was at VIR during a press drive for the 2003 SVT Cobra. I lost the brakes at 90 MPH on a press car that was wired with a Pi Data Logging system. Data logger showed I had 8 psi in the front, and 1200 psi in the rear. At 90 MPH I put the brakes on at the third braking marker going into the first turn and the pedal went to the floor. After a couple of pumps on the pedal and not getting any pressure build-up, I straightened the wheel and went off the track straight. I blipped the throttle and flicked the car around 180-degrees to make the back wheels the front since they would then be able to provide the most braking. I was able to save the car and myself.

The second time I lost brakes was in November 2019. That time I had video of the entire event. At 121 MPH I lost brakes. I pumped the brakes a couple of times and couldn't build pressure. I activated the emergency brake in an attempt to see if there was a change in deceleration rate (if the car slowed down more then I would know there was a hydraulic failure and the mechanical brakes would provide some braking, if not then I would know that they system was already working at max capacity.). The next course of action was to try to use the gravel trap to try to slow the car, but when I turned to try to go through it I could tell I would possibly end up in the gravel trap sideways which would end up causing a roll-over. Finally I decided to use the exit road to the skid pad, but I didn't know how much runoff room I had so I knew I needed to slow down. I went through the gravel trap straight and hit the exit road, but there was some lateral G-force from the maneuver which caused a spin when the outside wheels hit the grass. This was a blessing in disguise as it caused the car to slow down much more quickly.
Both of these events had the potential to be lethal, yet somehow I survived. There were a few takeaways:
  1. Keeping calm is absolutely critical.
    1. If you panic you will get target fixated and stop coming up with options for success.
    2. Making the conscious decision that you are NOT going to fail is also important.
  2. Look where you want to go.
  3. The front brakes do 75% of your braking, if you can spin the car around and make the back brakes the front brakes that may help.
  4. Getting the car into a controlled spin kills tons of speed, just make sure you go both feet in if you resort to this option, whether by chance or by choice.
  5. Knowing the track you're at and what potential options are available is important. If you don't know the track well, you should probably only be doing about 7/10ths at most.
  6. DO NOT GIVE UP!

WOW. Something we don’t like to think about and it’s even a little difficult to watch, but you looked like a pro managing the situation with enough composure to get you through it - I’m sure you were amped inside. So many takeaways from this post, Corral Man, and what you learned from those experiences can really help those who find themselves in a similar situation. And to have that on video is a real plus. Thank God everybody was alright and you made it out safe. Seems like you kept your head on your shoulders the whole time which is the most important part – panic leads to chaos and bad decisions, or no decisions. Going through a checklist in your head quickly is important, and the key for me is that you HAD some semblance of a checklist. Great job, thanks again for the post.
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
984
1,277
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
Knowing the track you're at and what potential options are available is important. If you don't know the track well, you should probably only be doing about 7/10ths at most.
I call this "knowing my out" - if something goes wrong, what's the best way to get out of the situation with the least potential for damage/injury. I even play it as a game when driving on the highway in traffic, imagining various problems (car I'm passing veers into my lane, hydroplaning through a big puddle, black ice) to try to build my situational awareness skills. I'd do the same at a track, imagining what to do if I lost brakes, a tire went flat, etc. for various parts of the track. I've gone so far as to imagine my motions and practice them sitting in the car to try to build "muscle memory" in case I need to actually do them. Like you said, keeping calm in an emergency is critical.

This goes back to the OP's point of flight training and preparing for emergency situations. In a flight sim you can actually run each scenario over and over; in a car you use what you've learned about vehicle dynamics and control, and your imagination. Hmm, I wonder if iRacing would consider making a "chaos monkey" car that experiences random failures so you could practice this at your favorite (virtual) track.
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
8,422
8,346
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Blair, Nebraska
Absolutely love Dave_W's comment about " knowing his out," because that is one of the first things I do when going to a track. Analyzing where the car might go if you have an issue not only could save your bacon, but focusing on a course and where the design is beneficial for driver error, also helps your concentration. I, also, have only lost my brakes ( completely ) twice , over a over 40 year period and one was in the kink at Road America in my 98 Viper. I surprisingly kept calm , drove onto the grass at the right to give myself a bigger arc and then held the wheel steady, letting the car drift to the left. Once it caught ( right on the left curbing ) I was back on the power , albeit with a little brown streak in my shorts, ha. I lost the brakes down the straight at a local track and I knew there was nothing in front of me to hit so I steered straight and ran into the alfalfa. Surprisingly when you go to a new track, especially if you are just learning it, look for the areas that are safe to exit if you have a problem, since this is more likely than loss of your brakes. I always tell students, as they get more comfortable and want to push it, to initially go faster in areas where there is an escape route.

Concerning Driving Schools, having gone 10 times, I feel they are a very advantageous way to practice your driving, improve your skills, and learn new techniques or methods to go faster. I used to recommend everyone go to the Ford Performance Racing School when it was at Utah Motorsports Campus ( Miller ) but I will get some flak because that would not be my first choice now. I do not like rovals because I think they are intimidating to new drivers with their banking and often have rude transitioning off said onto the flats. Recommendations for schools should be based on ones that offer a wide range of Classes and are open and safe, allowing one to learn while feeling comfortable if you make a mistake. Feel free to drop me a note if you are trying to decide on which ones to attend, I would be happy to give you a few recommendations.
 
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125
112
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Ann Arbor, MI
I call this "knowing my out" - if something goes wrong, what's the best way to get out of the situation with the least potential for damage/injury. I even play it as a game when driving on the highway in traffic, imagining various problems (car I'm passing veers into my lane, hydroplaning through a big puddle, black ice) to try to build my situational awareness skills. I'd do the same at a track, imagining what to do if I lost brakes, a tire went flat, etc. for various parts of the track. I've gone so far as to imagine my motions and practice them sitting in the car to try to build "muscle memory" in case I need to actually do them. Like you said, keeping calm in an emergency is critical.

This goes back to the OP's point of flight training and preparing for emergency situations. In a flight sim you can actually run each scenario over and over; in a car you use what you've learned about vehicle dynamics and control, and your imagination. Hmm, I wonder if iRacing would consider making a "chaos monkey" car that experiences random failures so you could practice this at your favorite (virtual) track.
DaveW I do the same thing on the highway these days after starting to track my car. In that regard it does feel like flying where your focus is broadened and situational awareness is enhanced, becomes second nature over time (though I could see some people saying “just drive the darn car“). I believe i’ll be able to do that at the track more and more once I get some of the basics and even more advanced parts of driving down. Great description of your thought processes though - I’m saving these in my account.
 
125
112
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Ann Arbor, MI
Absolutely love Dave_W's comment about " knowing his out," because that is one of the first things I do when going to a track. Analyzing where the car might go if you have an issue not only could save your bacon. concentrating on a course and where the design is beneficial for the driver also helps your concentration. I have only lost my brakes ( completely ) two times also , though over 40 years and one was in the kink at Road America in my 98 Viper. I surprisingly kept calm , drove into the grass on the right to give myself a bigger arc and then held the wheel steady letting the car drift to the left. Once it caught I was back on the power , albeit with a little brown streak in my shorts, ha. I lost it them down the straight at a local track and I knew there was nothing in front of me to hit so I steered straight and ran into the alfalfa. Surprisingly when you go to a new track, especially if you are just learning it, look for the areas that are safe to exist if you have a problem, since this is more likely than loss of your brakes. I always tell students, as they get comfortable and want to push it, to do it in areas where there is an escape route.

Concerning Driving Schools, having gone 10 times, I feel they are a very advantageous way to practice your skills, improve your skills, and learn new techniques or methods to go faster. I used to recommend everyone go to the Ford Performance Racing School when it was at Utah Motorsports Campus ( Miller ) and I will get some flak because that would not be my first choice now. I do not like rovals as I think they are intimidating to new drivers with their banking and often rude transitioning off said to the flats. Recommendations for schools should be based on ones that offer a wide range of Classes and are open, allowing one to learn and feel comfortable if you make a mistake. Feel free to drop me a note if you are trying to decide on which ones to attend.
Losing brakes appears to be very memorable experiences, though thankfully rare in terms of frequency! Same is true for pilots who find themselves in various situations. I’ll PM you for more specifics about schools - thanks for sharing your experiences above as well.
 
4
9
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
95993
Merry Christmas and blessed 2022 to you all.

After a year of driving on track, which has been a blast, I'm looking for ways to test the limits of my car and learn to recover from various situations when those limits have been breached.

I'm thinking of overbraking, understeer, oversteer, maybe learning to drift?

Also, when I used to fly, not only did we practice different manuevers, which helped us to become capable pilots that could really control the aircraft, but we also practiced how to manage various emergency situations, which for cars would be loss of brakes, loss of power, fire in one or another part of the car, etc. As an example, over the couse of my first year of track time, I've talked to several experienced drivers about a sudden and total loss of braking and no one has had much of an answer as to what one should do (cut power, use an emergency brake if you have one, pucker up and say cheese...). While we all think/do a lot to prevent loss of braking from ever happening, just as one example, it seems like there'd be some consensus out there on what to do in various undesired situations - I suspect professional drivers know all this but what about Joe Shmoe at a time trial?

Since flying is so safety aware and highly regulated in terms of a pilot's knowledge and capabilities, there were set procedures you just had to know. It seems like some, certainly not all, of that would be helpful in the HPDE to W2W world, where a driver is familiar with managing various situations through practicing understeer etc. Even better, the best pilots imo were the ones who did some aerobatics training - not to do that in the air, but to have been exposed to unexpected situations and what we called "unusual attitudes" so that you had some prior experience to draw on if a similar situation arose in flight. I know I'd be so much more comfortable as a driver if I could not only heel toe with the best of them but put my car into one or another turn just the way I wanted it, maybe with a touch of understeer on one and a bit of oversteer on another, exiting it the way I hoped.

Maybe a "performance driving school" could do the trick? If so, which ones have TMO members been to and which would they recommend? Is there some other way to this goal? I'd love to use the high school parking lot nearby, but I know what will happen there and that could cost me more than a driving school fee if the principal or smokey bear decides to interfere with my education.

FWIW I personally believe flying a small aircraft is safer than driving on a track. you can't just coast/glide in a race car when something catastrophic happens, most likely you're in a spin towards the wall. depending on speed the contingency should be how to survive the impact because you're going to hit the wall.
 
4
9
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
95993
I have suffered brake failures twice in my driving career of over 26 years. The first time was at VIR during a press drive for the 2003 SVT Cobra. I lost the brakes at 90 MPH on a press car that was wired with a Pi Data Logging system. Data logger showed I had 8 psi in the front, and 1200 psi in the rear. At 90 MPH I put the brakes on at the third braking marker going into the first turn and the pedal went to the floor. After a couple of pumps on the pedal and not getting any pressure build-up, I straightened the wheel and went off the track straight. I blipped the throttle and flicked the car around 180-degrees to make the back wheels the front since they would then be able to provide the most braking. I was able to save the car and myself.

The second time I lost brakes was in November 2019. That time I had video of the entire event. At 121 MPH I lost brakes. I pumped the brakes a couple of times and couldn't build pressure. I activated the emergency brake in an attempt to see if there was a change in deceleration rate (if the car slowed down more then I would know there was a hydraulic failure and the mechanical brakes would provide some braking, if not then I would know that they system was already working at max capacity.). The next course of action was to try to use the gravel trap to try to slow the car, but when I turned to try to go through it I could tell I would possibly end up in the gravel trap sideways which would end up causing a roll-over. Finally I decided to use the exit road to the skid pad, but I didn't know how much runoff room I had so I knew I needed to slow down. I went through the gravel trap straight and hit the exit road, but there was some lateral G-force from the maneuver which caused a spin when the outside wheels hit the grass. This was a blessing in disguise as it caused the car to slow down much more quickly.
Both of these events had the potential to be lethal, yet somehow I survived. There were a few takeaways:
  1. Keeping calm is absolutely critical.
    1. If you panic you will get target fixated and stop coming up with options for success.
    2. Making the conscious decision that you are NOT going to fail is also important.
  2. Look where you want to go.
  3. The front brakes do 75% of your braking, if you can spin the car around and make the back brakes the front brakes that may help.
  4. Getting the car into a controlled spin kills tons of speed, just make sure you go both feet in if you resort to this option, whether by chance or by choice.
  5. Knowing the track you're at and what potential options are available is important. If you don't know the track well, you should probably only be doing about 7/10ths at most.
  6. DO NOT GIVE UP!

Coming up on the turn at 80 mph couldn't the turn have slowed you down since there was a large grassy runoff? I know hindsight is 20/20 just asking your opinion.
 
334
352
Interesting discussion. I think the key is you have to find ways to practice by actually doing, by purposefully getting the car out of control in a safe environment. You can't learn this stuff by reading or sitting in a classroom. Autocross, ice racing, slow cars fast (Miata), are all good ideas.

Some other ideas I have found to be pretty accessible:

Drive on track in the rain every chance you get. You slide more at slower speeds, safe, slow and more out of control. Win-win.

Practice no-braking exercises. Do laps without touching the brakes at all. You can do this at any track day just by finding some open track. I think many people, even very experienced drivers, significantly over brake. You will learn to control your speed with other techniques, keep your eyes up, find your outs off the track, and find all sorts of other "outs" you never knew existed.

Practice driving significantly off-line. Learn what it feels like being in the low grip sections of the track. But take it easy, remember the grip is way less out there in the cold section of the track with all the marbles.

Pay attention to which corners have big run-offs and practice inducing understeer/oversteer on those, assuming no other cars are around.

Sort of related to "knowing your outs," learn how to go off track the right way. Try not to hook the car by desperately trying to stay on the pavement. Sometimes people are so fixated on not going off the pavement at all, they make the situation worse. You might be able steer your way out of a situation if you keep the car balanced.

Sign up for classroom day at a local skid pad. There are lots of these "Teen Survival Schools" or similar. Basically just practicing losing and regaining control of the car, throwing it into a skid, etc.

Depending on your car, consider driving it year-round including in winter. I throw Blizzaks on my car and it becomes my ski car in the off-season. Don't always reach for the AWD family truckster with the mega-snow tires, anyone can drive that thing!
 
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