S197 Learning True Car Control

[302BOB]

I throw Blizzaks on my car

I bought Blizzaks for my Olds years ago in Nov and thought I was good to go that winter....................Lo and behold a big deer ran across the road and totaled out my car...sometimes hind sight and foresight don't matter.................

 

[stevbd]

This is a pretty baller save right here:

 

[302FAM]

FWIW I personally believe flying a small aircraft is safer than driving on a track. you can't just coast/glide in a race car when something catastrophic happens, most likely you're in a spin towards the wall. depending on speed the contingency should be how to survive the impact because you're going to hit the wall.

I agree, flying is safer in many ways and your pre-flight checks, practicing maneuvers and emergencies, can do a lot to keep things that way. It seems like safety features in cars has come such a long way, HANS, fire suppression, nomex underwear, all kinds of chassis reinforcements, etc, which really reduce risk more than ever before - a good time to be tracking/racing overall. Still, there are inherent risks to the sport and good decision-making, along with preparation, seem key. Take it seriously and enjoy the time on track, as well as the people involved, which the latter has been the best part for me.

 

[302FAM]

Interesting discussion. I think the key is you have to find ways to practice by actually doing, by purposefully getting the car out of control in a safe environment. You can't learn this stuff by reading or sitting in a classroom. Autocross, ice racing, slow cars fast (Miata), are all good ideas.

Some other ideas I have found to be pretty accessible:

Drive on track in the rain every chance you get. You slide more at slower speeds, safe, slow and more out of control. Win-win.

Practice no-braking exercises. Do laps without touching the brakes at all. You can do this at any track day just by finding some open track. I think many people, even very experienced drivers, significantly over brake. You will learn to control your speed with other techniques, keep your eyes up, find your outs off the track, and find all sorts of other "outs" you never knew existed.

Practice driving significantly off-line. Learn what it feels like being in the low grip sections of the track. But take it easy, remember the grip is way less out there in the cold section of the track with all the marbles.

Pay attention to which corners have big run-offs and practice inducing understeer/oversteer on those, assuming no other cars are around.

Sort of related to "knowing your outs," learn how to go off track the right way. Try not to hook the car by desperately trying to stay on the pavement. Sometimes people are so fixated on not going off the pavement at all, they make the situation worse. You might be able steer your way out of a situation if you keep the car balanced.

Sign up for classroom day at a local skid pad. There are lots of these "Teen Survival Schools" or similar. Basically just practicing losing and regaining control of the car, throwing it into a skid, etc.

Depending on your car, consider driving it year-round including in winter. I throw Blizzaks on my car and it becomes my ski car in the off-season. Don't always reach for the AWD family truckster with the mega-snow tires, anyone can drive that thing!

Stevbd, that is a HUGE help and I can't agree more with every point you made. Last year I was one of two cars that would drive on track during the rain, but it was an oprimal learning experience. Everything else you said seemed right on point to - I'm saving your post as well, maybe I/we can compile a list of ideas for drivers that are interested. Great stuff, thank you for taking the time to detail your thoughts.

 

[302FAM]

I bought Blizzaks for my Olds years ago in Nov and thought I was good to go that winter....................Lo and behold a big deer ran across the road and totaled out my car...sometimes hind sight and foresight don't matter.................

Absolutely - as you mention and Stevbd's posted video shows, we don't get to control everything around us!

 

[mwjscn]

This is a pretty baller save right here:

While lucky, not quite sure that's what OP is looking for. This clip has made the Internet circuit and the driver said it's not what to do and leaves it up as a reminder to himself. He had the stock brake fluid in the car, boiled it, and then ripped the parking brake when he noticed the failure, inciting the spin with locked rears.

 

[302BOB]

A save is always something to celebrate.....if by your own doing or somebody watching over you.....I've had the latter more than once and I'm not too proud to admit it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[stevbd]

While lucky, not quite sure that's what OP is looking for. This clip has made the Internet circuit and the driver said it's not what to do and leaves it up as a reminder to himself. He had the stock brake fluid in the car, boiled it, and then ripped the parking brake when he noticed the failure, inciting the spin with locked rears.

Yeah I saw the same thing, to his credit the driver owns his poor track day prep and mistake using stock fluid.... but give credit where due, that was some quick thinking and impressive car control to induce the skid with that Scandinavian Flick

 

[mwjscn]

impressive car control to induce the skid with that Scandinavian Flick

He yanked the parking brake and the back, now locked, stepped out according to what he posted (intended outcome in heat of the moment: slow down - actual outcome: loss of control). While the methods are the same at face-value, I think the thing that separates this versus what the other more experienced people in the thread have mentioned was just slightly engaging the parking brake to determine if a hydraulic or mechanical issue was at fault and the intent to enter a somewhat-controlled spin versus the accidental result. To my understanding, a Scandinavian flick is inducing oversteer using weight transfer without any brake application. I'd still like to know what the car in front of him thought as he came flying across his dashboard mid-turn, though. Glad him and his car got out of there unscathed and I'd be more than happy for the same amount of luck should the same happen to me.

 

[302FAM]

Yeah I saw the same thing, to his credit the driver owns his poor track day prep and mistake using stock fluid.... but give credit where due, that was some quick thinking and impressive car control to induce the skid with that Scandinavian Flick

In some situations I hear it’s a good thing to straighten the wheels during a spin IF the car starts going in a straight line, which reduces chance of rollover - any thoughts?

 

[stevbd]

He yanked the parking brake and the back, now locked, stepped out according to what he posted (intended outcome in heat of the moment: slow down - actual outcome: loss of control). While the methods are the same at face-value, I think the thing that separates this versus what the other more experienced people in the thread have mentioned was just slightly engaging the parking brake to determine if a hydraulic or mechanical issue was at fault and the intent to enter a somewhat-controlled spin versus the accidental result. To my understanding, a Scandinavian flick is inducing oversteer using weight transfer without any brake application. I'd still like to know what the car in front of him thought as he came flying across his dashboard mid-turn, though. Glad him and his car got out of there unscathed and I'd be more than happy for the same amount of luck should the same happen to me.

Well I wasn't there and I don't mean to argue, but go to 0:12 of that video, I am pretty certain it is that "quick left-hard right" input on the steering wheel that is the "Scandinavian Flick" that induced the skid.

I've tried numerous times and you can't just lock up the rears on these cars using the e-brake, especially not at speed. At least not on mine. The ebrake isn't strong enough. Unlike the drum brakes of old, you can't just easily do an e-brake u-turn.

I do agree there was a lot of poor planning and good luck involved in that video. I'm not suggesting it is best practices. But it is some very impressive quick thinking and good car control. I think the guy deserves more credit than just "he was lucky."

 

[PatrickStapler]

I’ve always been told in most situations “in a spin…two feet in” which is good in really bad situations. Another good one in loss of control or wheels off, relax your grip on the wheel. Let the car decide what it wants to do. Then collect it. Human intervention will generally over correct it and get you into more trouble.

 

[mwjscn]

Well I wasn't there and I don't mean to argue, but go to 0:12 of that video, I am pretty certain it is that "quick left-hard right" input on the steering wheel that is the "Scandinavian Flick" that induced the skid.

I've tried numerous times and you can't just lock up the rears on these cars using the e-brake, especially not at speed. At least not on mine. The ebrake isn't strong enough. Unlike the drum brakes of old, you can't just easily do an e-brake u-turn.

I do agree there was a lot of poor planning and good luck involved in that video. I'm not suggesting it is best practices. But it is some very impressive quick thinking and good car control. I think the guy deserves more credit than just "he was lucky."

Reading more of his 'witness testimony', this is correct. In his own words, though, he does credit luck very heavily.

I was originally attributing the wavering motion to something I had seen before that also made the Internet rounds:

 

[blacksheep-1]

buy a Briggs 206 spec kart.

 

[Corral Man]

Coming up on the turn at 80 mph couldn't the turn have slowed you down since there was a large grassy runoff? I know hindsight is 20/20 just asking your opinion.

If I had tried to make the right turn I would have entered the gravel trap and skipped across the surface. Then I would have had no place to go but into the wall. The other possibility would have been that I might have entered the gravel trap sideways which would have caused a rollover. Those thoughts about using the gravel trap and going through the corner that way both went through my mind but were quickly ruled out in favor of using the exit road.

 

[carver]

"Learning True Car Control "
I would recommend using a rear wheel drive beater and hone your skill on snowy parking lots at 2am. before the plows show up. Also any gravel pits that you can sneak into. Any wet parking lots at 3am. and slippery back roads when they aren't busy......oh those were the days!!! No cops, no camera's and tons of laughs !

But actually these days I would recommend the wet and dry skid pad to really fling the car around. If you can master slippery conditions you will really improve your overall skill on the dry as well.

Ok, so Rally driver's are insane but they got balls too !

 

[302FAM]

I’ve always been told in most situations “in a spin…two feet in” which is good in really bad situations. Another good one in loss of control or wheels off, relax your grip on the wheel. Let the car decide what it wants to do. Then collect it. Human intervention will generally over correct it and get you into more trouble.

Nice - 2 feet in, clutch and brake, during a spin and stay relaxed on the wheel and in the mind a much as necessary. Thanks Patrick.

 

[302FAM]

buy a Briggs 206 spec kart.

Wow, so cool https://www.briggsracing.com/videos/briggs-206-kart-racing

 

[302FAM]

"Learning True Car Control "
I would recommend using a rear wheel drive beater and hone your skill on snowy parking lots at 2am. before the plows show up. Also any gravel pits that you can sneak into. Any wet parking lots at 3am. and slippery back roads when they aren't busy......oh those were the days!!! No cops, no camera's and tons of laughs !

But actually these days I would recommend the wet and dry skid pad to really fling the car around. If you can master slippery conditions you will really improve your overall skill on the dry as well.

Ok, so Rally driver's are insane but they got balls too !

Love the days of old when you could hone your skills just as you mentioned. I hope it rains like crazy in April when we start up again, and if I’m one of two or three people on track I’ll have a set of maneuvers to try - lots of runoff at my track which is great for all involved.

Winter rally SCCA events out here are great, which you can get into for about a grand$.

Skid pad rental might be the way to go, I don’t think there’s one at my home track. Maybe get a drifter to do some instruction? Finish off my tires from last season. If anyone wants to go in on that I’m in Michigan!

 

[Dave_W]

2 feet in, clutch and brake, during a spin

Once you know you're in a non-recoverable spin, 2 feet in HARD. What the technique is trying to do is lock all 4 tires so they LOSE grip (a sliding tire has less grip than a rolling tire) and the car continues in a straight line, which is much more predictable for any drivers around you to avoid. If you don't lock up the tires, they may regain grip during the spin/slide and shoot the car off at another angle.

I used to drive Miatas year-round, which in CT meant snow tires in winter. They had Torsens, so I learned to apply a small amount of handbrake if I was starting on a really slippery spot. The soccer moms in the big SUVs probably thought I was a lunatic passing them on the highway when they were slowing to 35 because of a little snow. I used visit friends in upstate VT for New Year's, and we'd always joke about the number of SUVs buried off I-91 with NY plates around the ski resorts. AWD/4WD means you can accelerate better in the snow, but it doesn't help you turn or stop.