Limited budget for 2022 - which route? 10" wheels/tires or suspension? '21 GT PP1

[drzed]

2021 Mustang GT PP1, will hope to do 5+ track days a year. My PP1 wheels came with Pirellis which are need replacement, so I am at a cross roads, and could use advice.
Currently I need to do "something" as my tires need replacement.

1) Enjoy driving the car on the street.
2) Don't really want to run spacers or studs.
3) Recognize the huge weight that the stock wheels are, and a light (forgeline, apex) weight 19x10 wheel would make stock suspension work less and get a wider tire.
4) Open to having a staggered setup.
5) Not entirely interested in swapping out to track wheels and tires (drive to track), as I still need to put new tires on my PP1 wheels to drive on street.
6) Will def. do track pads and possibly rotors.
7) I see the benefit of much lower unsprung weight, open to 2 piece front rotors...

Can I get some guidance? Do I go a route of shocks, springs, sway bars (plus Vorschlag camber plates?) and keep the 19" PP1 wheels (9 and 9.5") with MPS4S tires? Or keep stock suspension (for now) and get a light weight set of 19x10s with MPS4S tires?

Camber plates on stock struts shocks?

Looking at all options.... Appreciate everybody's point of view and thanks in advance.

EDIT: I recognize there is also a suspension forum... do I cross post?

 

[strengthrehab]

Can always get some cheaper 19x10 (SVE's from Latemodel Resto) and the money you save from that versus the Apex or similar wheels and get possibly get a set of used FP track dampers and springs and have the best of both worlds.

 

[Mad Hatter]

I guess if you are starting out and not dead set on beating the next guy (yet...). I would leave the car as is since its a PP1 and just get some good tires and the camber plates. Seat time/driver instruction are also a big plus.

As said above, if you want more grip the SVE wheels are really cheap and you could go 19x10 and 19x11 with 275/295 tires without much hassle. Good brake liquid and brake pads would help!

Have fun! If you get hooked, tons of people on TMO will help you spend your money in no time at all!!

 

[Apex Wheels]

100% do square wheels/tires. If you can do camber plates at the same time that would be even better. The stock PP1 suspension isn't that bad, just really lacks camber. J&M camber plates work great and can get you around -2.75* without issue which would be enough for PS4S or something similar like the Conti ExtremeSport.

19x10" ET40 all around with 275/35-19 would fit without issue and achieve what you want. While our wheels are a bit more than something like SVE, it's for good reason. They are stronger, have better brake clearance, weigh the same or less in the real world (check the actual weights), and most importantly are backed by our unmatched wheel replacement program.

18x10" ET40 square would also be a more budget minded option and produce the same or better results. 275/40-18 all around will again fit without issue and everything is cheaper (wheels and tires), plus lighter overall weight. Some of our wheels are on sale currently in the Overstock Sale section on our website. And we'll be having a big site-wide sale for Black Friday to help your money go further.

- Cory

 

[JDee]

Staggered setup is not good on a road course. These cars suffer from terminal understeer as delivered because it's safer than oversteer for John Q. Average. They are nose heavy and you need all the tire you can get up front. I initially bought 10"/11" rims, staggered tires, they are junk on track, understeer city. I use the 10's now only for bedding brakes and taking the car to the shop when I'm too lazy to put it on the trailer.

2 Piece front rotors are not worth the big added cost given the tires and setup it sounds like you're wanting to run. I easily get a season (10 or 12 track days at Mosport and Shannonville) out of cheap and cheerful OEM Ford blanks with 305 track tires on 11's for about 1/5th the cost of 2 piece rotors. The loss of weight isn't worth the cost especially since you're not adding tire up front. There are far better things to spend your money on at this point. Ford's FR3 track suspension kit is magic on this car and it is very streetable.

Not trying to be a dick, but when you really get bit by the bug you'll regret the choices you're making. Been there, done that. 11" wheels and 305 tires are the way to go for the track and are totally streetable (though not necessarily legal in good old Ontari-owe, the home of spacer hate). I did not want to run ARP studs and spacers either, but it's the only way you're going to get everything this car can do. And it can do a lot if you set it up right. It is one of the finest street car chassis I've ever driven on track, when set up right.

 

[TMSBOSS]

As JDee mentioned. Buying the wrong parts is extremely expensive. ROI is Zero. Learn from our "Ventures", don't buy the cheaper almost right set up only to have it sit in your garage collecting dust once you can afford better.. Unless of course you are interested in a set of staggered Enkis you could buy from me, then heck yes. LOL.
Best path is wheels and tires FIRST then other mods as the budget allows. Suspension part with too narrow of wheel/tires won't work. SVE's can work for a while if you go square. Why a square setup? Tire wear and front grip. As one tire wears you can move wheels and tires front to back, side to side. Many tracks will wear a side or corner heavier than others. If you go staggered, rotating to get max wear from the set is out the window. Our cars need front grip. A staggered setup will not provide the grip up front where its needed.
I went with a staggered setup first, still have that set for street transportation only. Then I went with a set of SVE drifts square in 10". The good thing about that set was I was able to sell them (At a Loss) when I got serious. If you can spend the cash now (ONCE) go square with the largest lightest wheel you can. Get over the need to replace the front studs. A stronger set of front studs is Recommended regardless of the length. We tend to Stress our front wheels, tires and Studs.
Yes, the real world does get in the way of our fun at times. In my case the real world (At the time) decision was to go half way to what I needed. The two sets of wheel I bought while learning cost me nearly $2k. Try to avoid our mistakes if you can.

BTW Welcome to the site and enjoy your ride.

 

[RES_22]

And can't emphasise enough the potency of the FP FR3 track susp kit...cheap, effective on street and track...does everything but wash your skivvies for you.

And it improves chassis response/control so much that it makes it much easier to understand your car while you learn how to improve yourself.

 

[bob]

Cooling 1st unless slower or driving at winter ambient temps. 1st recon trackday on my '19 PP1 got various cooling warning lights in 5 laps! I was so disappointed. The Gt needs to be hardened before making it faster. It can't get out of it's own way off the factory floor.

 

[JAJ]

... though not necessarily legal in good old Ontari-owe, the home of spacer hate...

Whut? Can't run spacers in Ontario? Even if the only reason is to position the wheels for the proper offset? I thought your Premier's name actually was Ford? What's up with that?

 

[JDee]

Whut? Can't run spacers in Ontario? Even if the only reason is to position the wheels for the proper offset? I thought your Premier's name actually was Ford? What's up with that?

Ricers. They caused that spacer ban. Idjots. Still see them driving around with ridiculous negative camber like 8 or 9 degrees with skinny tires stretched onto wide wheels. Punish us all for the idiocy of a few, goofs. Government hasn't yet figured out that you really can't fix stoopid.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Good lord!! I guess I am missing Canada a little less now.

 

[drzed]

Wow... this is fantastic, thank you.

However, even with the 10" wheels I would do the upgraded hubs/3" ARP studs and open nuts for the front. Thanks for this advice.

The 18x10 is an interesting option (thx Apex and yes I recognize the value of your product).

 

[Mad Hatter]

Apex stuff is great.. Tuff and light. My friends all bought the SVE 350S wheels... and they get dented by just looking at potholes.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Lots of good info, but square is cool, not square. Tires usually are your largest and often recurring expense , so spacers and ARP studs are cheap compared to many options. Being able to rotate them all around whether on track or auto crossing just extends life. Camber plates ( Vorshlag are super solid, but if on a budget the Max. Motorsports ones are very good ). Negative camber up front is another way to extend life of your number one cost ( tires ). You will run down the edges quickly without , so of course you will need to align. Have fun , there are other items you will need to upgrade and some like Dot 4 Brake fluid is not to be listed under options, it is a necessity.

 

[bnight]

2 Piece front rotors are not worth the big added cost given the tires and setup it sounds like you're wanting to run. I easily get a season (10 or 12 track days at Mosport and Shannonville) out of cheap and cheerful OEM Ford blanks with 305 track tires on 11's for about 1/5th the cost of 2 piece rotors. The loss of weight isn't worth the cost especially since you're not adding tire up front. There are far better things to spend your money on at this point. Ford's FR3 track suspension kit is magic on this car and it is very streetable.

I agree with that however lately I'm wondering if better rear brakes cooling from 2 piece rotors instead of the stupid Ford reverse cooling rear rotors will help extend Wheel Hubs life. Otherwise to put my 2 cents since I'm guessing my car is the cheapest in terms of mods and I drive it for 3 seasons 16 events with a total of almost 500 laps.
First is really important to add camber plates as all of the guys mentioned because this help the car (I run 275/35/19 square on the OEM PP1 wheels). I added a front swaybar from steeda 2nd hole from soft (this helped out a lot with body roll). Next A set of good brake pads is a must because OEM brake pads (Ferodo DS2500) are just not up to the task of sustaining track temperatures. My OEM pads lasted like 1 weekend where the current ones Gloc R10/R8 (my track is small) lasted me the whole season plus more (huge improvement in budget). If you want to go with dedicated set of wheels/tires I suggest you go square 305/30 on 19x11 Apex EC-7 wheels this by my estimation is the most cost effective route for our cars and it's proved time and again. In terms of Suspension you can ether go with the budget FR3 Track kit which should be really good or some good coilovers my plan is to go with Ohlins R&T because it looks like great value but in the States MCS also are great. After my 3rd season I start facing high ECT temps and need to start addressing my cooling issues. By the looks of it the needed mods are Race Louvers hood extraction vents to get air out, Mishimoto Oil Cooler and a bigger 3 pass radiator. Overall the question is how deep into the rabbit hole you want to go and what your overall plans for the car are if you want to just enjoy some track time without chasing Time Attack records or W2W championship titles your car is capable as is and just need CC Plates, Brake pads and wheels and tires. If you want to go all out it will need so much more. However for me was a great learning experience because I wanted to do racing since I was a kid and this car offered amazing platform for not a lot of money to be able to enjoy a hobby.

 

[drzed]

(255 and 275/40/19 stock)

If I chose to go 19"x10" square (285/35/19) the front tires are nearly the same diameter, the rear tires would be 3% less in diameter.
Would this be enough of a change to affect the stability control, the car consistently seeing 3% difference in wheel speed front to back from OEM?

 

[Bill Pemberton]

You should have no issues at all and most of us are going to suggest you go even bigger on your rims. You are looking in the right direction because being square with your wheels is the rare example as what the cool dudes do, ha!

 

[drzed]

You should have no issues at all and most of us are going to suggest you go even bigger on your rims. You are looking in the right direction because being square with your wheels is the rare example as what the cool dudes do, ha!

I know... I hear you... but I really do not want to use a spacer with longer studs (11" wheel I assume you mean on the front). We move somewhat frequently and it requires a safety inspection each time, and spacers - my understanding - are not allowed in each Province in Canada.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Sounds like 10s might be your choice, and I forgot about the spacer situation in Canada.

 

[JDee]

I know... I hear you... but I really do not want to use a spacer with longer studs (11" wheel I assume you mean on the front). We move somewhat frequently and it requires a safety inspection each time, and spacers - my understanding - are not allowed in each Province in Canada.

You might want to check into that. For sure spacers are banned in Bantario, but they are regulated provincially, not federally. Sask does not seem to ban them, not sure about other provinces though.

Also be aware that longer studs from the high quality manufacturers like ARP are far stronger than OEM studs. For a car seeing track duty ARP studs are on my 'must have' list, even if not running spacers.