Limited budget for 2022 - which route? 10" wheels/tires or suspension? '21 GT PP1

[blacksheep-1]

it's like anything else, if you're going to beat the crap out of it, you need to over maintain it Spacers, on the right studs have never been an issue for me, or any of the cars that I've worked on

 

[JDee]

Just one of the examples what happens when spacers fail on track.

Is there any evidence that the spacer failed? Is it even a spacer or is it an adapter? I can see an adapter failing, but HOW EXACTLY CAN A SPACER FAIL? It is aluminium or steel, sandwiched between a wheel and a brake disc with 5 lug nuts and studs securing it and on our cars those nuts have 150 lbs of torque on them.

I would bet a wheel stud broke or he lost a wheel nut and that cascaded into losing the wheel. Improper installation, failure to properly torque wheel nuts, broken studs, worn out threads, failed bearings/stub axles cause a lot more wheel loss than spacers do.

I have never seen a spacer that actually failed, it is nearly incomprehensible, it's the mounting points that fail, and to take that one step further it's usually human failure that caused the mounting point to fail.
But a spacer gets the blame?

 

[Steve68Cougar]

If it's a slip on spacer then the main parameter I'd worry about is having long enough studs. I've heard numerous people putting on 5mm spacers and possibly even wider to "improve the look of the car", but there's definitely a chance that the lug nuts don't have full engagement. They don't tend to make factory studs overly long to begin with, so it doesn't take much of a spacer before you're not fully engaged. I'm sure there are a lot of people that never even give it a thought. You just throw the stock close ended lugs on it and drive away without ever paying any attention to it. This scenario could be part of what led to the spacers being outlawed in the first place.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Solid point Steve concerning closed end lug nuts. That is the best and safest reason Trackrats and Autocrossers should secure wheels with open ended nuts.

This could be my shortest response in 4 months?

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Dear bnight,

Please continue to post as we value members on TMO from other Countries and I hope you realize that some of the folks here are middle aged, old or in my case ancient. The concern with a proper spacer (OP spacer ) is not with the spacer itself, but with the studs. As an ancient racer I have seen many folks use standard length studs and install a spacer over them, lacking enough stud length. This is why the older members on here are really stressing the issue that an ARP stud ( both strengthened and lengthened) is the only way to go for the track. Blacksheep 1 is the tire and wheel Guru for some very well known ( in the US ) racing teams and he has used enough long studs that he has become a Stud himself, ha. Seriously, most of us older members have used these aircraft grade long studs for years with no trouble and we use spacers. We are trying to show folks the reason longer studs are necessary to use with spacers. Your videos could be examples of what happens with standard, short studs.
Post more pictures when you go to a race track and a video would be cool if you have that capability? What track do you run in Bulgaria and have you raced the Mustang in other Countries near you?

 

[c_reber]

I've used both types (adaptors and spacers) never had had either fail. So for me, yes it was worth the risk! I of course, torque and re-torque the lugs often on both types. Like others have said, it is a wear item just like tires, brakes, etc. There is risk in any part on your car. Just my opinion...

I'm still confused about Ontario/Canada's spacer law. Do they go around parking lots looking at your hubs or something? Do they pull you over and ask if you have spacers? Yes, some are obvious, like the super camber folks. But on well setup mustang you cannot even tell there is a spacer - mine just look like it's part of the hub. This is me mostly just attempting a joke, but I suppose I am a bit curious to how many "spacer" tickets they give out.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Quite simple, just tell the Mounty your story about the spacers, you have long studs because that is what your nuts require.

 

[JDee]

I've used both types (adaptors and spacers) never had had either fail. So for me, yes it was worth the risk! I of course, torque and re-torque the lugs often on both types. Like others have said, it is a wear item just like tires, brakes, etc. There is risk in any part on your car. Just my opinion...

I'm still confused about Ontario/Canada's spacer law. Do they go around parking lots looking at your hubs or something? Do they pull you over and ask if you have spacers? Yes, some are obvious, like the super camber folks. But on well setup mustang you cannot even tell there is a spacer - mine just look like it's part of the hub. This is me mostly just attempting a joke, but I suppose I am a bit curious to how many "spacer" tickets they give out.

They target ricers and others who are into extreme insane levels of camber and so forth, mostly, with one exception that I know of. A few years ago the regional cops near Mosport set up a roadblock and checked cars going in and out of the track at a track day. That didn't last long, the mountains of dung that got thrown at them by all the legit car groups convinced them they were on the wrong track. Plus they apparently didn't find anything illegal.....

There was a good reason for this though, the street racing was way out of hand and there were a couple of high profile wrecks that really put the pressure on the cops to get firm. And they did.

But what came out of that was actually good, both sides agreed to work together to keep things safe on the streets and let enthusiasts enjoy their cars in a safe place on a track. So legit groups saved the day, though there are still outliers around who insist on poking the bear....

 

[bnight]

Dear bnight,

Please continue to post as we value members on TMO from other Countries and I hope you realize that some of the folks here are middle aged, old or in my case ancient. The concern with a proper spacer (OP spacer ) is not with the spacer itself, but with the studs. As an ancient racer I have seen many folks use standard length studs and install a spacer over them, lacking enough stud length. This is why the older members on here are really stressing the issue that an ARP stud ( both strengthened and lengthened) is the only way to go for the track. Blacksheep 1 is the tire and wheel Guru for some very well known ( in the US ) racing teams and he has used enough long studs that he has become a Stud himself, ha. Seriously, most of us older members have used these aircraft grade long studs for years with no trouble and we use spacers. We are trying to show folks the reason longer studs are necessary to use with spacers. Your videos could be examples of what happens with standard, short studs.
Post more pictures when you go to a race track and a video would be cool if you have that capability? What track do you run in Bulgaria and have you raced the Mustang in other Countries near you?

Hey Bill I do understand that longer studs work however considering how often at least my Mustang is going through wheel hubs I just think changing wheel studs so often is a problem. Here in Bulgaria rotating tires is not a big consumable so for my personal car I decided to go with ET26 19x11 front in order to A) not use wheel spacers because I don't want additional things that can fail on my car and B) I can still rotate tires. Maybe eventually will move to longer wheel studs, spacers and ET52 wheels up front but we will see how this season develops. I'm just pointing out that last season 2 such failiures (obviously on different cars than Mustangs failed) here a lot of drivers also use ARP studs on different models of cars and slip-on spacers but as you can see from video and photo evidences this still fail. Lug nuts I understand is a wear item and I'm on my second set. Regarding photos and videos check out my build thread lot's of videos from my local track. I plan to visit few more tracks near me like Nurburgring, Red Bull Ring, Spa, Hokenhaim ring this upcoming season ones the situation with travel improved. Have lot's of friends that are doing this tracks and we have a Bulgarian Carrera Cup / Germany GT4 racing team and the top driver is a friend of mine who is spending time teaching me when he can. With that in mind I'm excited to see how a set of 19x11 wheels with 295/30 tires will transform the car. Currently driving on 275/35 square.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

No argument that putting a spacer on with short studs could cause a problem, but what we are all saying is the spacer is not at fault , it is driver error in installing, lack of sufficient stud length, closed end nuts that one can not assure are on completely, etc. Your pictures show a failure but the spacer itself is not the issue, other things are. If you are having issues with hubs you can buy hubs with ARP studs already installed from Ford Performance and they are not that much more than just the hubs themselves --- they are also cheaper than buying the two items separately.
I have raced for over 40 years , and I have seen numerous broken studs , have had my share also, but the failures were all with standard studs, never with a lengthened ARP stud, and I have used quality, correct spacers for decades.
Like many failures on the track, one can often blame it on owner error, maintenance, etc. but as Blacksheep1 , myself and others have noted the spacer itself is not the culprit.
Sounds like you have some fun tracks to go to and the increase in tire size should help, but what brand are you running?

 

[bnight]

Sounds like you have some fun tracks to go to and the increase in tire size should help, but what brand are you running?

For the past 2 season I was running Chinese regenerate semi slicks made by Zestino in 275/35/19 and they did hold really well one set lasted 225 laps which was insane. And my current set lasted me 5 track days and by the look of it it has another day or so left in it. For next season I plan to go with same tires but in 295/30 in Europe we are very limited in terms of semi-slick tires and most options are insanely expensive other option I'm considering is Nankang AR-1 in 305/30 which may be better but not sure on how long it will last.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

It will be interesting if Continental ( a German Company ) will offer the new Continental Extreme Force they designed in conjunction with Hoosier. Since their acquisition of Hoosier, a few years back, there has been a trend for Continental to get back into the 200 Tread Wear Rated street and track tires. The focus of the Force model is endurance racing or for those customers who want a longer lasting, yet quick, road course compound tire. Not sure if they will send over to Europe or maybe build some there , but you might keep that tire in mind, and be on the lookout if sold in Bulgaria?

 

[Mad Hatter]

Those Zestinos are quite popular down here as well. Seem to last forever and the lap times are decent considering the long life they get. But I would think the Nankings will be faster.

 

[bnight]

Those Zestinos are quite popular down here as well. Seem to last forever and the lap times are decent considering the long life they get. But I would think the Nankings will be faster.

I'm happy with the Zestino's for sure but I'm sure the Nankangs will just be better. Other tire I'm considering is A052 by Yokohama which is also available in Europe and the others are the obvious Cup 2's and Goodyear Supersport R and Toyo R888R. Overall very limited choice of tires and since it's a square set choosing something that is easy to source and often is important. Still have few more months to decide though.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

The A052 is the current "King " of autocross tires for those Classes required to use a 200 Treadwear rated tyre, because of their ability to heat up rapidly. That said, they do not last very many cycles even on an autocross course and if you are looking for longevity on a road course this is not likely a good choice. If you want to run Time Trials, get in 2-3 laps and then head to the pits they might work, but long wear is not in their DNA.

 

[stevbd]

My understanding is that thread-in aftermarket studs break a lot more than the factory press-in style studs which are on our Mustangs. It has something to do with spreading the load through the "mushroom" part of the press-in studs, behind the hub, which is a lot stronger. I run a lot of track days with some BMW friends and have seen the problem first hand with the aftermarket thread-in studs those guys use. The really conscientious guys use this kit, which explains the problem: https://www.core4motorsports.com/product-page/core-4-bmw-3-series-ultimate-hub-conversion

It was explained to me that when using the problematic thread-in studs, you need to be extra careful that any spacer is precisely hubcentric, so that the longitudinal load is being carried by the hub chamfer and not the studs. This is a good thing to check with any spacer, but especially when using the weaker thread-in studs.

It was a moment when I was thankful to be driving one of our generally fairly sturdy Mustangs.

 

[bob]

My understanding is that thread-in aftermarket studs break a lot more than the factory press-in style studs which are on our Mustangs.

I think that is another user error. Some systems demand more maintenance. "loose" is what breaks studs. I see guys with type 2 spacers at the track diligently check their lugnuts before they go out on track yet they nevr take the wheel off to check the nuts on the spacer = fail. I have seen the same lugnut checking on screw-in stud hub cars like the bmws and mini cooper but no one takes the wheel off to make sure the stud if fully torqued to the hub. These come loose all the time.

I had a check book racer ask me to look at his car for front end vibration. Some of His wheel studs where in the hub loose with two screw threads in!

We use Type 1 spacers with long hardened studs to minimize potential error and failure.

 

[Dave_W]

If you use wheel spacers, you really should watch this. James Clay, professional driver for Bimmer World's IMSA GT team, talks about checking the fitment of each wheel spacer to each wheel.

 

[blacksheep-1]

If you use wheel spacers, you really should watch this. James Clay, professional driver for Bimmer World's IMSA GT team, talks about checking the fitment of each wheel spacer to each wheel.

that is actually a good video and makes a lot of good points