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Limp Mode / P061C. Looking for advice / help

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ArizonaBOSS said:
When do you go in for the swap?

Tuesday morning the dealer is doing the misfire relearn procedure with IDS. It's quick, easy and relatively cheap. I just want to put that suspicion to bed.

Immediately after that I'm going to data log on the street. If I get intermittent RPM faults, I'm going to schedule the pulse ring swap ASAP. Hopefully for Monday the 15th since I have that day off.

I have another FRPP Cobra Jet Pulse Ring on order from Tasca. If the teeth look better than what is coming out of the car, I'll go with it. If not, the OEM piece is going back in.
 

302 Hi Pro

Boss 302 - Racing Legend to Modern Muscle Car
2,009
441
Southeast
Berol:

Unless you have plans for an aftermarket Race tune that will utilize the 7,500. - 8,250 Rev Band, I would forget about the Cobra Jet Program car pulse ring.

If your keeping the OEM and TK Tunes, why not install the original PR? Just hate to see you go through another round of frustration just to lead you back to another CJ PR replacement.

Just a thought.

Good luck on Tuesday and let's hope for the best and the IDS reset is the cure!

302 HP
 
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302 Hi Pro said:
Berol:

Unless you have plans for an aftermarket Race tune that will utilize the 7,500. - 8,250 Rev Band, I would forget about the Cobra Jet Program car pulse ring.

If your keeping the OEM and TK Tunes, why not install the original PR? Just hate to see you go through another round of frustration just to lead you back to another CJ PR replacement.

Just a thought.

Good luck on Tuesday and let's hope for the best and the IDS reset is the cure!

302 HP

Thanks Dave.

Ultimately, I think what pulse ring goes in the car I will leave to the service manage / regional rep. I want them to be happy with it because if that doesn't work, I want them to warranty the ECM. I'll discuss that more with them on Tuesday.
 
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Misfire relearn procedure completed at the dealer today. Still have RPM faults when data logging on the street.

Car is scheduled to have the transmission dropped on Monday the 15th. I left the decision as to what pulse ring goes in the car up to the tech, on the understanding that if this doesn't work I want to be able to pursue an ECM under warranty. He's given his supervisor the word on the path forward, and they have chosen to reinstall the original OEM pulse ring that I pulled out in May 2015.

Not an exciting update, but I expected this to be the result. I think next Monday or Tuesday will tell us MUCH more.
 
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Dealer dropped the transmission and replaced the FRPP pulse ring with the OEM pulse ring.



And....



RPM FAULTS! Wee this is fun!
And they wasted no time either. 51 seconds into a 10 minute drive, RPM signal flat-lined for multiple data points on the silver key.


Going back tomorrow to discuss ECM replacement.
 
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ArizonaBOSS said:
Sorry to hear it's taken this long to diagnose. I hope the ECM replacement is the cure.

Thanks, me too. To be honest if it doesn't fix it, this car is for sale. This 10 month process has taken away the fun of owning this car.

TMSBOSS said:
Good luck with the ECM replacement.

Any issues with Warranty?

I hope not. They've discussed it already with me and the Tech has discussed it with the service manager. I just hope that new found excuses don't come out of the wood work in the next couple days. They seem like decent people, but with my luck who knows.
 

302 Hi Pro

Boss 302 - Racing Legend to Modern Muscle Car
2,009
441
Southeast
Berol said:
Thanks, me too. To be honest if it doesn't fix it, this car is for sale. This 10 month process has taken away the fun of owning this car.

I hope not. They've discussed it already with me and the Tech has discussed it with the service manager. I just hope that new found excuses don't come out of the wood work in the next couple days. They seem like decent people, but with my luck who knows.

Berol:

That is a shame, I was hoping you were on to something with the last repair attempt. I certainly understand your feelings about enough is enough.

The PCM, what else could it possibly be? This has to effect emissions, so push the service department in this direction if they come up with excuses to not replace the PCM. (7/70 emissions warranty coverage)

As always, good luck with the next part of this journey.

302 Hi Pro
 
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I do not think you will have an issue with the warranty coverage period. I was 14 months beyond my bumper to bumper warranty when Ford replaced my PCM for the same fault code.

The dealer did have concerns that the cars modifications might be the root cause. However, the technician working on the car discussed the issue with the service manager and they both came to the conclusion that they were not the root cause. Their biggest concern was the aftermarket clutch, flywheel, and CJ pulse ring. But, those items had been in the car for almost a year without issue and approximately 10 track weekends. They agreed that since that was the case those items were not a problem.

Things would have gone differently if I had modified the motor or tune.
 
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It's a miracle I didn't get arrested today and you all could have met me on CNN and Fox News.

Started to discuss ECM replacement on warranty and it's like I was a whole new customer starting a brand new conversation. Service manager is balking at warranty work. Tried to accuse the FRPP Pulse Ring as suspect for causing the ECM failure. He said he needs two days to think about, and time to discuss this with a Ford Engineer.

I nearly lost my mind. I reminded him that the last two visits the car has made there, I've let them call the shots on parts replacement on the understanding that they would be happy with the work and move on towards an ECM on warranty.

I guess once a dealer gets $725 of your money for dropping the transmission and misfire relearn, they figure you'll be happy to cough up another $700 for an ECM, Red Key flash, and PATS programming...

Going back in two days.
 

302 Hi Pro

Boss 302 - Racing Legend to Modern Muscle Car
2,009
441
Southeast
Berol:

I totally understand your frustration with your latest discussion with the Service Manager. However, its important to stay cool and logical. At this point, you don't want to give them justification to not work on your Boss.

Once the SM starts to blame one part for the failure of another part, they will have to prove this is the case. Cause and effect. Just remember, the pulse ring is a Ford Racing part!

If the Service Manager has to talk to the FORD service rep, then comes back with No, then request the reason for the decision. If your not confident in the SM, then request a meeting with the Ford rep.

If they stand on the pulse ring as the cause, and there is no documented install issues on your end, then the ECU should be covered under a FRPP "Parts Warranty Claim". Consequential parts damage from the pulse ring.

When are you going back and what are the next steps?

302 Hi Pro

Note: Let's hope the reason for denial is not a High Warranty Cost per UIO situation.
 
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Service Manager and the Regional Rep have agreed that if I can make the car produce the issue so that they can witness it, and plug in IDS while it's happening, and then pinpoint the cause, they will warranty the work. The problem is it's never limped on the street but I figure I'm going drive it a bunch in vicinity of the dealer and see what I can do. Weather was good this afternoon so I swapped license plates from my beater daily driver onto the car in preparation for a test drive in Cuba (Mexico is too far away from Florida).

Car wouldn't start easily because I had forgotten to put a battery tender back on the car and the 5 year old OEM battery is about to give up. Tried again 5 minutes later and it started, and started in limp mode. Symptoms were similar to the track (no CEL, only the wrench light). Limped it to the dealer.

IDS came up with throttle body codes. Tech said in his experience when the wrench light, and only the wrench light, is on that it's either transmission or throttle body. Obviously points to the throttle body on a manual transmission car since no real wrench light codes exist for the transmission on a manual car. He also mentioned that failed throttle bodies on Ford vehicles is nothing new for him, he sees them across the vehicle lineup quite frequently.

I REALLY wanted the car to produce the code while driving, vice while starting - Just in case the low battery voltage at startup confused the drive by wire / throttle body performance. Tech did say he saw no evidence of low system voltage or issues from that.

Two hours of continuous street driving yielded no other instances of limp mode. Ran out of free time and brought it home. (During which I learned the hard way that the engine coolant line that runs to the heater core hadn't been put back on tight enough and I dumped over half my coolant on to the motor...Yay!)

Makes me think back to performance on the track too, since most of the issues with limp mode have been during heel-toe downshifts and near the apex (both instances of rolling into the throttle).

The only thing this DOESNT explain is why data logging shows engine RPM signal going to 0 while on the street. Does anybody with a normally functioning car have data files with engine RPM going to 0 for very short periods of time? If so, I'm going to assume that it's normal, get a new throttle body and try another track event.

Also haven't completely ruled out the ECM, as it's completely possible that both the throttle body AND the ECM are toast.
 

Tucson 302

2013 Black LS #439
Berol

The Throttle body is what I would look into. I had switched to the Accufab TB and had the exact same symptoms. Went back to the stock TB and never had another wrench light or limp mode.
 
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Tucson302 said:
Berol

The Throttle body is what I would look into. I had switched to the Accufab TB and had the exact same symptoms. Went back to the stock TB and never had another wrench light or limp mode.

Thanks! Good to know. I definitely had P061C / rpm issues, probably from the cut in the wiring harness, but I think this problem has been compounded by a bad throttle body too.

Going to get a new battery and a throttle body and see where it goes from there.
 
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Did the Ford Tech hook your car up to the IDS system and monitor the engine functions real time? The Tech that worked on my car did and he said he could easily see abnormalities like misfires even though the car did not through a code.
 
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2012-Boss said:
Did the Ford Tech hook your car up to the IDS system and monitor the engine functions real time? The Tech that worked on my car did and he said he could easily see abnormalities like misfires even though the car did not through a code.

He said he wrote down the codes that got thrown. He mentioned not seeing anything unusual besides the throttle body issue, but I'm not sure that he really looked at live data. I should have asked him about that...

Out of curiosity, did your car throw a CEL, wrench light, or both?
 
Tucson302 said:
Berol

The Throttle body is what I would look into. I had switched to the Accufab TB and had the exact same symptoms. Went back to the stock TB and never had another wrench light or limp mode.

Tucson302.............Was the Accufab TB the reason you were occasionally seeing a P0611 code? .....The non-Mustang code that you and Cloud9 were seeing from time to time.

Last year I starting getting a P0611 code at the track, I saw it about two dozen times. Most often at the start or end of a lapping session when car was being driven with light throttle. Once or twice I got the code at speed in the middle of a session. Once the light came on after being on track for 40 minutes. I would always see the wrench light; and twice the "Service AdvanceTrac" message. Wondering if a new TB would solve my issue.
 

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