Long Tube Headers & Check Engine Lights Explained

[gremlinsteve]

so your stacking two green high flow cats and the check engine light issue is gone.

why not find a single slightly less efficient cat? would that do the same thing as what your trying to accomplish at a one cat price? or is my mind over thinking this?

while i want the long tubes, i do not want to deal with cel and or codes anymore

 

[ford20]

What have you herd of tunes not working in this car?

Lean out/burn cylinder # 7 or 8 (can't remember which).
This is very reminiscent to me of experience with barrel-manifold setups on Porsche cars.
It is difficult to get the mix even across all 4 (or 8 on the coyote) cylinders.
I remember reading online an interview where the female engineer (no gender-bias intended) commented that she had difficulty getting all the cylinders to run at the same a/f.
It seemed to me that the direction of the conversation was that Ford had already pushed that envelope as far as they could (with their runner box setup).

I might have these readings book marked & if so will post them back for you.
It was interesting stuff.

Just for a clarification it is #8 that ends up blowing. The engine runs to lean and it eventually effects the ring lands on cylinder #8 for some odd reason. Many people have attributed it to the piston oil squirters that are on the Coyote 5.0 that may lead to the eventual destruction of #8. It does make sense considering that the Boss does not utilize oil squirters and Ford eliminated them from the 2013 5.0 block in favor of heat treated pistons. I honestly would not be afraid of having a Road Runner 5.0 lose #8 especially if I had a tune from Jon Lund. Jon and Ken tune most of the fastest 5.0s and Mustangs around and spend a lot of time at the Texas Mile and they often tune their cars to be very safe and can turn up the wick upon request. For me it is more of a warranty thing plus I do like the built in 2 step feature of the Track-Key lol

 

[nota4re]

Yeah so if you have long tubes, you would have to change the manifold and the dp to get it to pass smog, assuming you did not want to spend the extra 750 on the green-green.

Once you install the LT headers - which is the ~6 hour job, then it is easy to swap cat-deletes for cats. Kooks sells the Boss H-pipe in a catted or non-catted configuration but these are simply seperate pipes in front of the actual H-pipe. Figure about 20 minutes to change around configurations.

 

[CaliMR]

Catalytic efficiency failure is there only because it is mandated by federal law . There are no steps taken in the program logic of the car with this CEL. More serious CEL's can trigger drastic ECU action including limp mode.

Good to know.


Swapping in the green-green for emissions testing probably isn't a viable solution for most people as it would still require buying the thing in addition to the regular one. Maybe we can as a community buy one and just ship it back and forth on a deposit + shipping basis? I wouldn't want to be the one managing it though lol. They do that on the Tundra forum with a special scan tool that allows reprogramming the door chimes and stuff.

And swapping headers isn't very outside the box, it is done quite a bit in the turbo import scene. I know a few people who do it with aftermarket turbo kits but seems it also is not a viable solution here due to the time it takes.


Thanks for the very useful info!

 

[gremlinsteve]

how about this idea? two different h pipes...one non catted for your driving style. one set up to run a stock style/flowing cat to pass emmissions. meaning buy a second non cated h pipe and fit a set of stock cats to that. or are the placements of these cats going to have issues also. since they are prolly farther down stream that what ford set them up originally.

 

[nota4re]

What have you herd of tunes not working in this car?

If you have the track key programmed, then if you install an aftermarket tune, the track key program (dual key) usage cannot be recovered - unless you go back to Ford.

We can open another thread to share opinions on engine management but, in brief, these new Mustangs are totally different and if you run across a tuner that says differently - then I'd go somewhere else. The difference is that the car stays in a closed-loop mode (at least partly) all of the time. Yesteryear Mustangs would go to open-loop mode and tuners could much with the tables and manipulate what the car would do. In our Mustangs, the computer is ALSO thinking for itself (can you say, HAL?) and making it's own adjustmets to a/f based on the real-time wideband feedback that it is getting. This is why all of the cars that we have installed headers/exhaust on have NOT required a tune. Ol' HAL is in there doing his own manipulations.... and so far doing a damn good job.

 

[lbp]

To that point, after reading your claims & dyno chart (earlier this Spring) of a 35 appx. HP gain & of Track Key's ability to dynamically adjust A/F; is it reasonable to assume that adding a Kooks setup to the Boss is a safe way to bump Track Key power without sacrificing engine reliability? (Also with respect to Kooks' claim that their Boss LT setup was developed in cooperation with FOMOCO.)

Yes. (I don't like the word "claims" as I'm simply trying to share our results with the community in as straightforward of a way as we can.)

What our dyno testing revealed is that not only does the ECU compensate for the headers & exhaust (which would normally cause a car to run lean) the ECU + real time wideband feedback in the stock car's ECU actually ran the car a tenth or two richer in BOTH black key and red key operation. One of the cars that we maintain has this exact set-up and has many, many hours of track time in HOT conditions - and most of these sessions the driver tends to run the car with the AC full blast!! There has been no hiccups, no abnormalities, no header gasket leaks, no lossening of bolts, etc. This owner takes care of his car maintenance-wise but simply drives the piss out of it on the track.

Like you, I would prefer to run the OEM tunes as on the track, I frankly believe they are leaving nothing on the table and they have much deeper pockets to do the right calibrations.

- With the understanding that the PCM will throw a cel code, can we expect to run Kooks' LT configuration with no cats (Kooks test pipes only) with otherwise safe and reliable operation under track key?

Positively, yes. We have several track-prepped cars running like this and there is absolutely no problem. Modern ECUs are programmed to respond differently to different fault codes. Catalytic efficiency failure is there only because it is mandated by federal law . There are no steps taken in the program logic of the car with this CEL. More serious CEL's can trigger drastic ECU action including limp mode.

CoolTech:
With your emphasis added, I am comfortable accepting your findings as accurate & truly stated.
I am also very pleased to hear that you have cars running with test pipes in track conditions.

Now for that bad news:
I have already bought a Kooks setup here on the East Coast and regret that I cannot sent the business to you.

It's also fair to mention that you are the only guy who has been able to provide straight answers from your own direct experience to these questions.

MANY THANKS.
Lee.

 

[lbp]

To that point, after reading your claims & dyno chart (earlier this Spring) of a 35 appx. HP gain & of Track Key's ability to dynamically adjust A/F; is it reasonable to assume that adding a Kooks setup to the Boss is a safe way to bump Track Key power without sacrificing engine reliability? (Also with respect to Kooks' claim that their Boss LT setup was developed in cooperation with FOMOCO.)

Yes. (I don't like the word "claims" as I'm simply trying to share our results with the community in as straightforward of a way as we can.)

What our dyno testing revealed is that not only does the ECU compensate for the headers & exhaust (which would normally cause a car to run lean) the ECU + real time wideband feedback in the stock car's ECU actually ran the car a tenth or two richer in BOTH black key and red key operation. One of the cars that we maintain has this exact set-up and has many, many hours of track time in HOT conditions - and most of these sessions the driver tends to run the car with the AC full blast!! There has been no hiccups, no abnormalities, no header gasket leaks, no lossening of bolts, etc. This owner takes care of his car maintenance-wise but simply drives the piss out of it on the track.

Like you, I would prefer to run the OEM tunes as on the track, I frankly believe they are leaving nothing on the table and they have much deeper pockets to do the right calibrations.

- With the understanding that the PCM will throw a cel code, can we expect to run Kooks' LT configuration with no cats (Kooks test pipes only) with otherwise safe and reliable operation under track key?

Positively, yes. We have several track-prepped cars running like this and there is absolutely no problem. Modern ECUs are programmed to respond differently to different fault codes. Catalytic efficiency failure is there only because it is mandated by federal law . There are no steps taken in the program logic of the car with this CEL. More serious CEL's can trigger drastic ECU action including limp mode.

OK, So now my emphasis added (to be sure I understand correctly), - are we saying that Kooks LT setup with test pipes will throw a cel code, but that this setup will not degrade ECU performance?

Thanks for your patience (and expert response)..
Lee.

CoolTech:
With your emphasis added, I am comfortable accepting your findings as accurate & truly stated.
I am also very pleased to hear that you have cars running with test pipes in track conditions.

Now for that bad news:
I have already bought a Kooks setup here on the East Coast and regret that I cannot sent the business to you.

It's also fair to mention that you are the only guy who has been able to provide straight answers from your own direct experience to these questions.

MANY THANKS.
Lee.

 

[jeepinocala]

What have you herd of tunes not working in this car?

If you have the track key programmed, then if you install an aftermarket tune, the track key program (dual key) usage cannot be recovered - unless you go back to Ford.

Ah that is what you were getting at well I would figure any modification and tune would make the trackey useless. If you change anything serious the trackey tune would not be what you would want for best performance anyway. Ok so I have the track key tune in my car but find that it really is a marketing thing works great but as soon as you are looking into another tune you must have gone past the trackey tune anyway. yes I do understand you can only have one tune or fords stock with the trackey ontop of it.

 

[lbp]

What have you herd of tunes not working in this car?

If you have the track key programmed, then if you install an aftermarket tune, the track key program (dual key) usage cannot be recovered - unless you go back to Ford.

Ah that is what you were getting at well I would figure any modification and tune would make the trackey useless. If you change anything serious the trackey tune would not be what you would want for best performance anyway. Ok so I have the track key tune in my car but find that it really is a marketing thing works great but as soon as you are looking into another tune you must have gone past the trackey tune anyway. yes I do understand you can only have one tune or fords stock with the trackey ontop of it.

Well, It seems I may have disturbed a hornet's nest by my "tuner" remarks which was not my intention.

- What tune do you use, what are the specs; do you track you boss & do you run it alot/hard on the track?

Thanks, & no disrespect intended to those who tune..

 

[Rich_S]

I remember about 6 months ago there was talk that some of the tuners were working on cracking Track Key (meaning they could layer their custom tune on top of Track Key tune).

Any progress here? Or have they all given up?

 

[cloud9]

Positively, yes. We have several track-prepped cars running like this and there is absolutely no problem. Modern ECUs are programmed to respond differently to different fault codes. Catalytic efficiency failure is there only because it is mandated by federal law . There are no steps taken in the program logic of the car with this CEL. More serious CEL's can trigger drastic ECU action including limp mode.

This answers my question on the P0155 I've been throwing at Road America all day today. The car hasn't gone into limp mode and seems to be full power on as this appears to be an emissions DTC.

Lee - all good questions and I think we're both looking for the same thing and realize the limitations of an after-market tuner's ability to get more out of this engine with a tune without a significant number of issues and/or engine damage. With all the codes I continue to throw just hammering on the track on the OEM calibration, it's clear FOMOCO is still learning some nuances to tuning this engine and also has me convinced they squeezed everything they could out of it, unlike my GT500 where a lot was left on the table for tuners.

Kendall - if SCT can just get their hands on the calibration, all we need is the TK calibration with the rear 02s shut off by them.......for those of us not in a CARB state or ONLY tracking our cars of course ;D Your KOOKS sales would skyrocket. Ok, I'm probably asking for too much now, but based on your research it sounds like that's all we need to pick up 35-40 hp without increasing risk to the engine.

 

[lbp]

Positively, yes. We have several track-prepped cars running like this and there is absolutely no problem. Modern ECUs are programmed to respond differently to different fault codes. Catalytic efficiency failure is there only because it is mandated by federal law . There are no steps taken in the program logic of the car with this CEL. More serious CEL's can trigger drastic ECU action including limp mode.

This answers my question on the P0155 I've been throwing at Road America all day today. The car hasn't gone into limp mode and seems to be full power on as this appears to be an emissions DTC.

Lee - all good questions and I think we're both looking for the same thing and realize the limitations of an after-market tuner's ability to get more out of this engine with a tune without a significant number of issues and/or engine damage. With all the codes I continue to throw just hammering on the track on the OEM calibration, it's clear FOMOCO is still learning some nuances to tuning this engine and also has me convinced they squeezed everything they could out of it, unlike my GT500 where a lot was left on the table for tuners.

Kendall - if SCT can just get their hands on the calibration, all we need is the TK calibration with the rear 02s shut off by them.......for those of us not in a CARB state or ONLY tracking our cars of course ;D Your KOOKS sales would skyrocket. Ok, I'm probably asking for too much now, but based on your research it sounds like that's all we need to pick up 35-40 hp without increasing risk to the engine.

Here is a cross-link (not the one I referred to earlier in another section of this thread), but which might be of interest to some:

http://www.themustangnews.com/content/2011/07/ford-tsb-warns-of-modifications-to-2011-2012-5-0-mustangs/

Personally, I like the track key tune and think that it has really good characteristics everywhere - wide torque, high rmp (with good power) excellent throttle response... what's not to like?
My philosophy for a track engine is that I would rather leave some chips on the table than max out the performance, which is usually a recipe for disaster in a track-driven unit.

So, if that basic personality can be left intact, and just lift the chart a bit with a KOOKS setup, sign me up.

Gary, if I understand CoolTech's (Kendall?) remarks correctly, (looks like he understands and is familiar with what is going on engine/ecu-wise), it seems that the cel code with test tubes does not affect engine drivability, reliability or safety. This has given me some confidence that I can install the the KOOKS setup which has been sitting in my garage for a couple of weeks now.

However, I will continue to run 104 octane as a safety margin.

Funny thing is, I bought this car as a daily driver, but decided it was too good to use up/waste on the street.

Go figure... ;D ;D

 

[Justin]

If you have the track key programmed, then if you install an aftermarket tune, the track key program (dual key) usage cannot be recovered - unless you go back to Ford.

That isnt true. I bought a tune from JLP installed it and was/am able to go back and forth between the Trackey Tune and the JLP tune.

And swapping headers isn't very outside the box, it is done quite a bit in the turbo import scene. I know a few people who do it with aftermarket turbo kits but seems it also is not a viable solution here due to the time it takes.

Yeah trust this guy it takes a long time/ a lift/ a pole jack and tiny hands to swap headers on the 5.0. I have helped some people do it...its not something you want to do more than once without getting paid to do it.

 

[lbp]

If you have the track key programmed, then if you install an aftermarket tune, the track key program (dual key) usage cannot be recovered - unless you go back to Ford.

That isnt true. I bought a tune from JLP installed it and was/am able to go back and forth between the Trackey Tune and the JLP tune.

And swapping headers isn't very outside the box, it is done quite a bit in the turbo import scene. I know a few people who do it with aftermarket turbo kits but seems it also is not a viable solution here due to the time it takes.

Yeah trust this guy it takes a long time/ a lift/ a pole jack and tiny hands to swap headers on the 5.0. I have helped some people do it...its not something you want to do more than once without getting paid to do it.

Justin,
How has the tune been?
- Do you track the car?

 

[lbp]

If you have the track key programmed, then if you install an aftermarket tune, the track key program (dual key) usage cannot be recovered - unless you go back to Ford.

That isnt true. I bought a tune from JLP installed it and was/am able to go back and forth between the Trackey Tune and the JLP tune.

And swapping headers isn't very outside the box, it is done quite a bit in the turbo import scene. I know a few people who do it with aftermarket turbo kits but seems it also is not a viable solution here due to the time it takes.

Yeah trust this guy it takes a long time/ a lift/ a pole jack and tiny hands to swap headers on the 5.0. I have helped some people do it...its not something you want to do more than once without getting paid to do it.

..I've heard it's a time-consuming, knuckle-busting job.
Not looking forward to it.

 

[Justin]

If you have the track key programmed, then if you install an aftermarket tune, the track key program (dual key) usage cannot be recovered - unless you go back to Ford.

That isnt true. I bought a tune from JLP installed it and was/am able to go back and forth between the Trackey Tune and the JLP tune.

And swapping headers isn't very outside the box, it is done quite a bit in the turbo import scene. I know a few people who do it with aftermarket turbo kits but seems it also is not a viable solution here due to the time it takes.

Yeah trust this guy it takes a long time/ a lift/ a pole jack and tiny hands to swap headers on the 5.0. I have helped some people do it...its not something you want to do more than once without getting paid to do it.

Justin,
How has the tune been?
- Do you track the car?

Umm the tune...isnt very driveable to me. Its an old school idle tune. Sounds good at idle and drives fine at WOT anything in between...it bucks around below 2000, surges at part throttle, hangs up the rpms between shifts (rmps just hang at where they were). you let up on the gas in 1st and it will out cruise at 20mph.

I dont track the car like you guys do. I am a drag racer. I havent tried it at the track. I took it back off the car cause I started to hate to drive the car and the cats started to get a sulfur smell pretty bad.

75 dollars was the cost for the tune. It makes for a crowd at the car shows

 

[Justin]

If you have the track key programmed, then if you install an aftermarket tune, the track key program (dual key) usage cannot be recovered - unless you go back to Ford.

That isnt true. I bought a tune from JLP installed it and was/am able to go back and forth between the Trackey Tune and the JLP tune.

And swapping headers isn't very outside the box, it is done quite a bit in the turbo import scene. I know a few people who do it with aftermarket turbo kits but seems it also is not a viable solution here due to the time it takes.

Yeah trust this guy it takes a long time/ a lift/ a pole jack and tiny hands to swap headers on the 5.0. I have helped some people do it...its not something you want to do more than once without getting paid to do it.

..I've heard it's a time-consuming, knuckle-busting job.
Not looking forward to it.

it is. I used to install the headers on the side on the 05-10's I wont do the 11-13's just takes to long and requires a lift as you have to jack the engine up so you can take off the motor mounts to get access to the lower middle two bolts on the headers.

Make sure you have a set of gearwrenches this will shave off hours from your install time.

 

[lbp]

If you have the track key programmed, then if you install an aftermarket tune, the track key program (dual key) usage cannot be recovered - unless you go back to Ford.

That isnt true. I bought a tune from JLP installed it and was/am able to go back and forth between the Trackey Tune and the JLP tune.

And swapping headers isn't very outside the box, it is done quite a bit in the turbo import scene. I know a few people who do it with aftermarket turbo kits but seems it also is not a viable solution here due to the time it takes.

Yeah trust this guy it takes a long time/ a lift/ a pole jack and tiny hands to swap headers on the 5.0. I have helped some people do it...its not something you want to do more than once without getting paid to do it.

Justin,
How has the tune been?
- Do you track the car?

Umm the tune...isnt very driveable to me. Its an old school idle tune. Sounds good at idle and drives fine at WOT anything in between...it bucks around below 2000, surges at part throttle, hangs up the rpms between shifts (rmps just hang at where they were). you let up on the gas in 1st and it will out cruise at 20mph.

I dont track the car like you guys do. I am a drag racer. I havent tried it at the track. I took it back off the car cause I started to hate to drive the car and the cats started to get a sulfur smell pretty bad.

75 dollars was the cost for the tune. It makes for a crowd at the car shows

Hmmm...
Well, there's got to be someone out there with a tune on a track-driven Boss.
...Anyone??

 

[ford20]

And here I thought I was one of the only Boss owners that would be taking their car to the strip considering the preferred motoring sport of the Boss owner lol

If you have the track key programmed, then if you install an aftermarket tune, the track key program (dual key) usage cannot be recovered - unless you go back to Ford.

That isnt true. I bought a tune from JLP installed it and was/am able to go back and forth between the Trackey Tune and the JLP tune.

And swapping headers isn't very outside the box, it is done quite a bit in the turbo import scene. I know a few people who do it with aftermarket turbo kits but seems it also is not a viable solution here due to the time it takes.

Yeah trust this guy it takes a long time/ a lift/ a pole jack and tiny hands to swap headers on the 5.0. I have helped some people do it...its not something you want to do more than once without getting paid to do it.

Justin,
How has the tune been?
- Do you track the car?

Umm the tune...isnt very driveable to me. Its an old school idle tune. Sounds good at idle and drives fine at WOT anything in between...it bucks around below 2000, surges at part throttle, hangs up the rpms between shifts (rmps just hang at where they were). you let up on the gas in 1st and it will out cruise at 20mph.

I dont track the car like you guys do. I am a drag racer. I havent tried it at the track. I took it back off the car cause I started to hate to drive the car and the cats started to get a sulfur smell pretty bad.

75 dollars was the cost for the tune. It makes for a crowd at the car shows

Hmmm...
Well, there's got to be someone out there with a tune on a track-driven Boss.
...Anyone??

Lund Racing They have an excellent reputation, tune the fastest cars on the strip and some of the fastest Mustangs on the Texas Mile and are known for being a little conservative in their tunes. Jon Lund and Ken Bajones (sp) are some of the best tuners in the Mustang community.

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