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Moving from entry level coilovers to MCS 2-way...what to expect?

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I'm moving from a set of entry level coilovers (Pedders XA with 560F/1300R (divorced rear setup)) that have worked very well to MCS Double adjustables (450 F/750 True rear coilover). Car is used mostly used for autocross and some daily driving.

Car is 3500lb (w/out driver) S550 GT on 19x11 wheels and 305/30/19 200 TW tires (Rivals currently, but have "new" RE71Rs packed away for fall)

I've discussed with a few people and they have noted I may experience some differences in the car such as
1. More overall grip
2. More consistency driving at the limit
3. Both of these should increase my confidence in the car.
4. Easier/quicker to take a set

If you've made the switch to a good set of coilovers what did you notice.
 
6,360
8,180
Grip is sort of relative, and in most cases, fleeting. The idea is to establish and improvement over the long term. As an example a decent set of stickers can totally transform a car for a few laps, this is why there is qualifying and race setups. The key is long term improvements in handling. This is why most folks make 1 change at a time. With regards to shock packages, most production car setups revolve around the shocks, this because the shocks have improved in leaps and bounds and have become one of the most expensive improvements you can make. I personally am an off the shock spring guy because of their ease to use. Once you go down the shock package rabbit hole of death there's no turning back. The prices range from the $1K lo ball Pedders to the $10K Penske race package, and all of those need to be rebuilt every 20K miles, the Penskes probably sooner since they are race oriented.
With the less expensive coil overs, I'm not sure that they would offer much of an improvement over a well designed and sorted out divorced spring setup. These cars seem to respond very well to camber/caster changes. In short, there is no demon tweak that will make these cars leap ahead of your competition. it's always a combination of things.
 
77
56
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
TX
I'm moving from a set of entry level coilovers (Pedders XA with 560F/1300R (divorced rear setup)) that have worked very well to MCS Double adjustables (450 F/750 True rear coilover). Car is used mostly used for autocross and some daily driving.

Car is 3500lb (w/out driver) S550 GT on 19x11 wheels and 305/30/19 200 TW tires (Rivals currently, but have "new" RE71Rs packed away for fall)

I've discussed with a few people and they have noted I may experience some differences in the car such as
1. More overall grip
2. More consistency driving at the limit
3. Both of these should increase my confidence in the car.
4. Easier/quicker to take a set

If you've made the switch to a good set of coilovers what did you notice.
I'd say;
1. Potential for more overall grip
2. Consistency is more a driver condition, all shocks and springs are pretty consistent as they are responsive to velocity or displacement
3. A good setup will always improve driver confidence, regardless of level of shock, spring, etc
4. Rebuildable shocks are only minorly more convenient from brand to brand
Grip is sort of relative, and in most cases, fleeting. The idea is to establish and improvement over the long term. As an example a decent set of stickers can totally transform a car for a few laps, this is why there is qualifying and race setups. The key is long term improvements in handling. This is why most folks make 1 change at a time. With regards to shock packages, most production car setups revolve around the shocks, this because the shocks have improved in leaps and bounds and have become one of the most expensive improvements you can make. I personally am an off the shock spring guy because of their ease to use. Once you go down the shock package rabbit hole of death there's no turning back. The prices range from the $1K lo ball Pedders to the $10K Penske race package, and all of those need to be rebuilt every 20K miles, the Penskes probably sooner since they are race oriented.
With the less expensive coil overs, I'm not sure that they would offer much of an improvement over a well designed and sorted out divorced spring setup. These cars seem to respond very well to camber/caster changes. In short, there is no demon tweak that will make these cars leap ahead of your competition. it's always a combination of things.
blacksheep's philosophy & results seem to align with mine albeit I have much less experience. I agree with everything here and want to re-iterate the service interval for race oriented shocks. They are much less than OE / typical aftermarket systems.
 
1,161
2,116
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
SoCal
Grip is sort of relative, and in most cases, fleeting. The idea is to establish and improvement over the long term. As an example a decent set of stickers can totally transform a car for a few laps, this is why there is qualifying and race setups.
In short, there is no demon tweak that will make these cars leap ahead of your competition. it's always a combination of things.
So coming at this discussion from a slightly different perspective - if stickier tires don’t yield faster lap times, is it reasonable to assume that soft springs could be the limiting factor?

04F0C7B4-BA4F-484F-926F-6A07BBC65014.jpeg

Car was professionally aligned/corner balanced, which resulted in a huge time improvement on the 200TW tires. @Bill Pemberton assured me that A7’s would be good for sub-50, however consistent low 51’s have become the ceiling. This same weekend in June, a guy with a 2020 GT350R switched to a sticker set of A7’s and dropped 3+ seconds from his 200tw times. (Lack of talent is an acceptable conclusion as well - in which case I’ll stop buying the expensive Ho-ho’s and focus more on driver mod!)
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
984
1,275
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
Do you know what your apex speeds are for the different tires? Could be that you're driving the same corner speed that you're used to out of habit, and not using the extra grip available from the Hoosiers. Are the Hoosiers making any sound in the corners?
 
77
56
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
TX
So coming at this discussion from a slightly different perspective - if stickier tires don’t yield faster lap times, is it reasonable to assume that soft springs could be the limiting factor?

--

Car was professionally aligned/corner balanced, which resulted in a huge time improvement on the 200TW tires. @Bill Pemberton assured me that A7’s would be good for sub-50, however consistent low 51’s have become the ceiling. This same weekend in June, a guy with a 2020 GT350R switched to a sticker set of A7’s and dropped 3+ seconds from his 200tw times. (Lack of talent is an acceptable conclusion as well - in which case I’ll stop buying the expensive Ho-ho’s and focus more on driver mod!)

It is not simply a question of softer or stiffer springs. Its a question of total stiffness per end of the vehicle, not including aero. If you do not have aero you want to take advantage of as much mechanical grip as possible. If you are running a moderate to significant amount of aero you will be relying on that for the majority of the vehicle's total available grip. The tire will have it's life affected by total loading, contact patch management, and motorsport alignment. So as blacksheep said, you can get better lap times just from stickier tires but that doesn't last very long. You're shooting for area under the curve for grip performance.
 
1,161
2,116
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
SoCal
Do you know what your apex speeds are for the different tires? Could be that you're driving the same corner speed that you're used to out of habit, and not using the extra grip available from the Hoosiers. Are the Hoosiers making any sound in the corners?
So as blacksheep said, you can get better lap times just from stickier tires but that doesn't last very long. You're shooting for area under the curve for grip performance.

Apex speeds are higher with the A7’s, especially the first 6 heat cycles. On this AutoClub speedway data I was comparing, day 1 apex speeds were higher, but I was getting aero drag on the 2 straights. Lowered AoA on the wing for day 2 which restored straight mph, however the A7’s were starting to fall off with apex speeds declining, netting similar times. So I left time on the table day 1, but likely 10ths, not the big step up I was expecting.
Generally speaking, apex speeds were limited by understeer, mid corner off. Rear sway is full soft, so no quick adjustment there. There’s likely opportunity with air pressure. Certainly some setup tweaks would find some time, but the lack of big-step improvement that I’ve witnessed so often with other cars moving up to R compounds has me questioning the limits of my current spring package.

I know OP’s question was more what to expect after upgrading, I was just trying to add reference on how to know when you’ve outgrown current setup. @ShatterPoints, I’ve been very impressed with your scientific approach to understanding the complexities of the system as a whole - I’ll move the specifics of my dilemma to my build thread, where I would gladly hear yours and others input on next steps.
 
343
300
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Bulgaria
This same weekend in June, a guy with a 2020 GT350R switched to a sticker set of A7’s and dropped 3+ seconds from his 200tw times. (Lack of talent is an acceptable conclusion as well - in which case I’ll stop buying the expensive Ho-ho’s and focus more on driver mod!)
Do you have a professional to who you can give the car so it can set a benchmark time ?
 
I’m running a fairly inexpensive set up. Koni Yellows and H&R race springs on a Shelby GT. 3v V8. The race springs were sourced from Sam Strano. Can’t recall the specs but call him. Car works great at Summit Point, Lime Rock, NJMP and Watkins Glen. Alco running Michelin slicks 305 square.

Had my pro coach drive the car to set a benchmark at Watkins. He agreed. The car works great.

I do get the itch to go to JRi or MCS now and then but always come back to to idea that if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
 
501
550
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Snowy North
@67GTA...I see that your A7 times were set with 80ish+ ambient. I see also that your SC3 times were set with 60ish ambient

Assuming that track temps trended with ambient....maybe it's a tire heat sensitivity issue vs a suspension thing? A7s hate heat, 3Rs are finickey about the way they're warmed up...and aren't easy to keep in the window on a coolish day. Both respond amazingly to a thoughtful initial prep heat cycle....unless one has a money tree and only cares about 1 or 2 fast laps in a one-and done (sell as takeoffs) session lolol.

Are you able to do back to back runs on similar life cycle 3Rs vs A7s....same day, time, track conditions? That would be interesting........
 

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