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My motor blew up......now what?

Just to update.....pulled the motor out over the weekend. Really did a number on the block and also put a huge hole in the oil pan. Gen 3 Aluminator was ordered but won't arrive until February. I'll pull the head this weekend and hope it's undamaged.

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Did you get the short block or complete gen 3 Aluminator ?? My short block has been on back order since beginning of September
 

TMSBOSS

Spending my pension on car parts and track fees.
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Why??
I guess if we wanted a chevy, we would buy a chevy. Too simple??
Service after the sale. Who works on the chevy in a Ford? I understand you are well versed in the hybrid. Most are not.
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
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Must have been sleeping that I missed a dead motor thread!! Very sorry that the engine bit the dust. I know how that feels. Just in case you cant find a gen 2 head (I couldn't), Livernois has new ported gen1 heads that flow quite a bit better then gen2 or Boss heads. Thats the way I went in the end.
 

Fair

Go Big or Go Home
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Why??
I guess if we wanted a chevy, we would buy a chevy. Too simple??
Service after the sale. Who works on the chevy in a Ford? I understand you are well versed in the hybrid. Most are not.

Well I see this excuse a lot ("JusT bUy tEh CeMeRo!") but, as a shop that works on these as well, there are significant benefits of the S197 or S550 chassis over a comparable 5th and 6th gen F-body Camaro...

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The 5th gen Camaro does come with an LS3 and Tremec TR-6060 (remote shifted though) drivetrain, which is pretty dang good and offers a LOT of potential (headers + cam swap makes 500-535whp, and it is cheap to do!) The Tremec TR-6060 is much stronger than the Getrag MT82 trash that comes in the S197 and S550 (even better than the Shelby 4XXX Tremec from the Cadillac). BUT the 5th gen's rear suspension is funky AF (IRS, but still whacked), the diff is weak, and it is ONE FAT PIG starting at 3800 pounds (+200 lbs over an S197).

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The greenhouse is also smaller and it has worse visibility, headroom, seat mounting is a challenge, etc. The car is also made for 20" wheels, so the front spindles are tough to use with an 18" diameter wheel - you literally have to GRIND part of the spindle away for clearance to fit an 18x11". We end upjust running a 19x11" / 305/30R19 on these instead. Limits tire and wheel choices if you are not willing to grind...

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The braking system is also less than ideal, with ABS programming that is notoriously bad... not so funny for this driver, but it IS something you need to know. I can put a 5th gen Camaro into Ice Mode in a parking lot inside 30 seconds, every single time. Its just crap.

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For the 6th gen GM focused on weight and dropped 200 pounds out of this compared to the 5th gen, back on par with an S197 or S550. They improved the suspension (loosely based off Cadillac ATS/Alpha chassis) but the visibility / headroom / greenhouse are still tight.

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One of the big downsides of this model are the cast aluminum strut towers - which can crack or break. And they are glued into the chassis, so when they fail it is a LOT of work to replace (to be fair, BMW and Porsche have taken this shot cut also, with the same downsides).

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Most people that own 6th gens for track use buy 1LE versions (or worse - ZL1/1LE) and they have pretty high consumable costs (esp ZR1/1LE) - they eat brake pads and tires, but can be quick. They also eat the magride dampers, and replacing these outside of warranty is PRICEY (the ZL1/1LE's DSSV dampers are $4000 per axle and break WAY more often). We will see ever fewer of these on track as they run out of warranty (and GM is going to stop building this chassis soon).

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And the 6th gen still has the sh!te ABS programming and associated issues - that just do NOT happen on the S197 / S550 ABS.

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As much as I love the LS + Tremec aspects of these two generations of Camaros, and as good as they can perform on track, the REST of the problems of the F-body and GM in general keep me buying S197 and S550 Mustangs. I've owned 5 of these later Mustangs - and keep buying / building them! I prefer the other aspects of these Ford chassis a lot more, and will suffer through the Coyote limitations -OR- just LS swap them and put in the better T56 Magnum XL while we're at it.

Life is short to limit yourself to one brand of car / drivetrain! ;)
 
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Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
4,095
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Santiago, Chile
Thats ok, cross dressing has become acceptable now, look at Hamilton! Don't like the guy much, but he is a exceptional driver. So if he can do it.... then let the swaps fly! All is fair in the search for speed......
 
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I actually am not very brand faithful - if the Camaro wasn't so ugly, a current generation SS 1LE or ZL1 would be on my short list of track cars - I haven't seen as many of the issues Terry mentions above, but there are not many on the tracks up in the Northeast compared to some other brands.

Terry did hit a few things about swaps that are important. It is not as simple as just pulling one motor and dropping in the other. A lot of things have to change to make everything work well and retain things like electronic steering, ABS, etcetera. Most of that is beyond there average wrench turners ability to do by themselves. Once Vorschlag's LS swap kits are complete (I see basics on there site, but do not see everything), its a competent solution for a track car. I know that addressing engine management is straightforward with an LS swap (abundance of aftermarket PCM and fuel injection support), but I am not sure how they address other integrated systems. If I was anywhere near their shop, I would certainly stop by and become better educated on the subject.

I made a point about LS swaps not being as cheap as people think, and I stick by that point. But, I concede Terry's point about the ability and cost of making power with a NA coyote vs an NA LS motor. I don't necessarily agree with Terry's position about Coyote reliability above 7,000 RPM, but he did make a point of specifically mentioning oil pumps, timing chains, etcetera. I would also add valve springs. We generally pull motors early on and install billet oil pumps, crank sprockets, and upgrade the valve springs. From then on we usually pull the motor every two HPDE seasons and put in fresh valve springs. You also need to address oil and engine cooling as Terry pointed out - the temps really start to go through the roof above 7,000 RPM.

For the average guy doing the work in his garage and who isn't looking for more than 475 or so RWHP, I still think sticking with a Coyote based build is the cheapest route. You may spend a little more on the engine, but you avoid all of the other swap costs and integration challenges.
 

carver

breaker of wrenches
372
470
ontario
Thats ok, cross dressing has become acceptable now, look at Hamilton! Don't like the guy much, but he is a exceptional driver. So if he can do it.... then let the swaps fly! All is fair in the search for speed......
One of my first Gen RX-7s was a cross breed. 283 small block 300+ HP. 700r4 trans. 2400lb. car . Kinda wish I kept that one. It was very quick and bullet proof and still handled great!!

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Must have been sleeping that I missed a dead motor thread!! Very sorry that the engine bit the dust. I know how that feels. Just in case you cant find a gen 2 head (I couldn't), Livernois has new ported gen1 heads that flow quite a bit better then gen2 or Boss heads. Thats the way I went in the end.
I got my gen 2 heads from Levittown Ford couple weeks ago. They have great prices. They were the only ones that came thru with them.
 
Just in case you cant find a gen 2 head (I couldn't), Livernois has new ported gen1 heads that flow quite a bit better then gen2 or Boss heads. Thats the way I went in the end.
Hatter, if the head is damaged on that side then I'll look at options. Adam at Rev Auto will be doing the install and tuning. He did not recommend bigger cams and valve springs. He felt the torque loss and energy to move the springs would offset the benefits. So I'll reinstall the L&M cams, valves and new Boss springs. He was very supportive of switching to E85 so I'm going that route.
 
I got my gen 2 heads from Levittown Ford couple weeks ago
Adam at Rev said the Gen 2 heads would be on par with the Boss heads but hard to find as you mentioned. I just don't want to spend money I don't need to. I would rather upgrade the radiator, coat my headers and make some other improvements with the savings.
 
Adam at Rev said the Gen 2 heads would be on par with the Boss heads but hard to find as you mentioned. I just don't want to spend money I don't need to. I would rather upgrade the radiator, coat my headers and make some other improvements with the savings.
It was cheaper to buy the new heads. Engine shop by me wanted me to buy new valves and springs then he wanted $800 to do a valve job. The new heads were $450 each. I ordered mine from LMR early September. What LxM cams did you use??
 
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Hatter, if the head is damaged on that side then I'll look at options. Adam at Rev Auto will be doing the install and tuning. He did not recommend bigger cams and valve springs. He felt the torque loss and energy to move the springs would offset the benefits. So I'll reinstall the L&M cams, valves and new Boss springs. He was very supportive of switching to E85 so I'm going that route.
Adam's looking at corner exit torque. He also understands NASA classing - bigger cams will hurt corner exit and put you over NASA average power limits without ballast.

The larger cams such as Comps NSR and CR series "require" limiters due to piston to valve clearance concerns which prevent you from fully advancing the cams. This hurts low and mid-range torque. However, with the huge valve reliefs cut into the Gen 3 Aluminator pistons, I suspect you could actually run the larger cams without limiters and get back the low and mid-range. But, installing the larger cams without limiters requires checking piston to valve clearance and tech support from Comp. Basically, someone from Comp would either have to tell you where to degree the cams to check clearance or you provide them clearance at TDC and they figure out if you have a piston to valve issue when advancing the cams.

For old school motors without VCT, you can call Comp and give them piston to valve clearance at TDC and they can tell you which cams will work in your engine without causing a clearance issue. I am not sure if they can do the same for Coyote cams with VCT.

As far as springs go, you need to at least install a new set of Boss 302R springs. For cars that see a lot of HPDE or racing, Coyote valve springs should be considered a maintenance item. While the Boss springs will work fine with your current cams, I would still upgrade to a set of PAC 1234X springs. The Aluminator is capable of higher RPMs than the stock Boss short block - but you need better springs if you want to turn the motor above 7,500 RPM. There are three basic things Roush changed for their IMSA motors in the Boss 302: rods, pistons, and valve springs. The Aluminator takes care of the rods and pistons, you should upgrade your valve springs.

I do not agree with the E85 recommendation. Adam is looking at the higher octane rating and the increase fuel flow decreasing cylinder temperatures - which will reduce the chance of detonation. However, you won't be able to find E85 near most east coast race tracks. Unless you are willing to bring a fuel rig to the track with you, its not a good option. There is no E85 available anywhere near Watkins Glen, VIR, NJMP, Lime Rock and a lot of other tracks. None of the tracks I have been to anywhere in the country sell E85 on site.
 

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