Need a new motor...please point me in the best path

[JP X]

2nd day at VIR today. If I look through the hole in my oil pan, I can see valves. Imma think that's not how Ford designed it. 2017 GT.
I have a friend who is a Ford parts dealer and can get me a good price on a remanufactured motor. So as I see it my options are:
1: remanufactured at a deal, have a mechanic friend put it in. My friend tells me that they don't make the same motor.
2: go to the dealer, pay out the rear for a reman
3: reman, do it myself.
My skill level: The last time I replaced a motor was a VW bus in '89.
4: upgrade to new gen motor. Any landmines with this?

I appreciate your advice in advance.

 

[2012-Boss]

Capaldi racing has new Gen 2 long blocks on the shelf. We installed one in SteveEspo's 21 car this past year. Just swap over your intake and couple other items and you are ready to go.

 

[docs302]

Well, after suffering the same fate with my original 14K-mile Gen1 motor I went with a new Gen3 short block and transferred everything over. Luckily, other than a couple of valves, the heads were fine. I got my shortblock at cost so under 3K with the $500 core charge. If you have a friend who can get you a short block at cost, I would consider that as an easy route.

What I would not recommend is assembling one yourself. After watching countless Youtube videos in preparation and getting the help of TMO experts like 2012-Boss above, I decided to attach everything to the short block myself to save some bucks and get some valuable experience. I definitely now have experience in screwing myself. The very reputable tuner who was supposed to just pop my motor into the car found enough mistakes in my assembly that he pretty much took all of my 40-50+ hours of slow, methodical work and threw it out. Had to start with the short block clean and redo everything. Lots of little details that the videos and service manual never mentioned. I can only trust that my tuner was being honest but I thought I did a pretty damn good job. I know some members have done it themselves successfully but it's not just tightening bolts.

So....that's my .02

 

[OX1]

Well, after suffering the same fate with my original 14K-mile Gen1 motor I went with a new Gen3 short block and transferred everything over. Luckily, other than a couple of valves, the heads were fine. I got my shortblock at cost so under 3K with the $500 core charge. If you have a friend who can get you a short block at cost, I would consider that as an easy route.

What I would not recommend is assembling one yourself. After watching countless Youtube videos in preparation and getting the help of TMO experts like 2012-Boss above, I decided to attach everything to the short block myself to save some bucks and get some valuable experience. I definitely now have experience in screwing myself. The very reputable tuner who was supposed to just pop my motor into the car found enough mistakes in my assembly that he pretty much took all of my 40-50+ hours of slow, methodical work and threw it out. Had to start with the short block clean and redo everything. Lots of little details that the videos and service manual never mentioned. I can only trust that my tuner was being honest but I thought I did a pretty damn good job. I know some members have done it themselves successfully but it's not just tightening bolts.

So....that's my .02

It's really that hard to assemble a coyote when the short block is already done?
Another reason I would go godzilla if I ever blow mine up, I guess.

 

[honeybadger]

Well, after suffering the same fate with my original 14K-mile Gen1 motor I went with a new Gen3 short block and transferred everything over. Luckily, other than a couple of valves, the heads were fine. I got my shortblock at cost so under 3K with the $500 core charge. If you have a friend who can get you a short block at cost, I would consider that as an easy route.

What I would not recommend is assembling one yourself. After watching countless Youtube videos in preparation and getting the help of TMO experts like 2012-Boss above, I decided to attach everything to the short block myself to save some bucks and get some valuable experience. I definitely now have experience in screwing myself. The very reputable tuner who was supposed to just pop my motor into the car found enough mistakes in my assembly that he pretty much took all of my 40-50+ hours of slow, methodical work and threw it out. Had to start with the short block clean and redo everything. Lots of little details that the videos and service manual never mentioned. I can only trust that my tuner was being honest but I thought I did a pretty damn good job. I know some members have done it themselves successfully but it's not just tightening bolts.

So....that's my .02

Any idea what was changed? Did you have a service manual to follow?

I'm a bit surprised to hear your feedback. I thought the service manuals were very descriptive and make re-assembly pretty easy if you're good at following directions. But I guess things can get hairy if you are building frankenstein engine using different gen parts.

 

[2012-Boss]

There service manual is just that - it covers parts replacement. It is not a detailed assembly manual. Unless you document your disassembly with photos of everything and make notes, you will almost certainly screw something up in assembly. For example, there is a small secondary chain guide on the bottom of the Mega Cap. You won't find it mentioned in the assembly manual when you read the sections concerning timing the motor. Why? Because the preceding disassembly section did not have you remove the secondary chain tensioners, so installation does not cover them or their associated components.

 

[2012-Boss]

The Gen 2 long blocks I mention above are all new, off the assembly line, and delivered to Ford Performance. They are complete minus wiring and intake manifold. Since they are a Gen 2, they will drop right into a 2017 and run on the factory tune (unless you changed something else, if so, use your existing tune).

 

[docs302]

It's really that hard to assemble a coyote when the short block is already done?
Another reason I would go godzilla if I ever blow mine up, I guess.

I didn't think it was difficult to assemble at all. Some things like the phasers were a PITA doing it by myself but everything went together and I thought it was perfect. Is it common knowledge that you put oil in the oil pump when assembling? Nobody ever mentioned that and maybe it's just Adam's thing but that was unacceptable. Is anyone else aware that sometimes a cam lobe oiling hole needs to be deburred because they block up and restrict flow??? Adam says he often sees it with dirty cam filters (I replaced mine with new) so that was another issue. I was also told I missed gasket sealer in a couple of spots which I did not think was the case. Used a nice torque wrench with angles for bolts but was told there was some area in the timing gear that was overtightened and needed to be redone. None of this I was aware of but I guess I would rather get it done right. Experience counts I guess.

 

[JP X]

I've been talking about this situation with a mechanic friend who was at the track with me (he's a Porsche / Honda mechanic, for what it's worth). He questioned how often oil-pressure drop causes engine failure due to high G's and whether converting to dry-sump on the new motor would be helpful. Thoughts?

 

[Mad Hatter]

Big fan of the Gen 3 shortblock with oiling mods. But I guess is depends on what your goals are. The Gen3 block with the usual hi-perf goodies will get you to 500rwhp. Oil pressure and cooling are critical in any case. Specially if you take them up to 8000rpm

 

[honeybadger]

There service manual is just that - it covers parts replacement. It is not a detailed assembly manual. Unless you document your disassembly with photos of everything and make notes, you will almost certainly screw something up in assembly. For example, there is a small secondary chain guide on the bottom of the Mega Cap. You won't find it mentioned in the assembly manual when you read the sections concerning timing the motor. Why? Because the preceding disassembly section did not have you remove the secondary chain tensioners, so installation does not cover them or their associated components.

The service manual I have for my 2017 literally lists every step with pictures, torque values, and torque patterns. It's not just replacement - it's full engine assembly from bare block to fully assembled long block ready to drop onto the k-member. Same with the transmission, etc.

I've been talking about this situation with a mechanic friend who was at the track with me (he's a Porsche / Honda mechanic, for what it's worth). He questioned how often oil-pressure drop causes engine failure due to high G's and whether converting to dry-sump on the new motor would be helpful. Thoughts?

I know the factory five racers (running those Cobras) mostly run dry sumps because they regularly blow motors up from oil starvation. Keep in mind, the Cobra Challenge cars pull a bit more g than a mustang. But they run junkyard coyotes with dry sumps for this exactly reason.

 

[2012-Boss]

The dry sump is not needed. You just need a good pan, pickup, and pump. The GT500 kit is great setup and cost effective. FYSA, Capaldi doesn't run dry sumps on their own race cars - they thought the move to a dry sump in IMSA was waist of money.

 

[302BOB]

A new Motor is NO joke and a Major Commitment!!!!!!!............Good luck on your endeavor!!!!!!!!

 

[2012-Boss]

You need to prime the engine oil following the Ford Performance Aluminator instructions. In addition to that, Adam is probably talking about making sure engine oil has been poured into the pump and distributed so it is lubricated at start up. Neither of these steps are covered in the S197 service manual....

 

[Dave_W]

Slightly off-topic question, but asking due to SCCA Solo2 rules - say I blew up my Boss "Roadrunner" motor and went to a Ford dealer parts desk for a replacement, does anyone know what they would give me? I think any Roadrunner long blocks are long gone, and even Boss heads and pistons seem to be discontinued. The rulebook allows me to replace the engine (and other parts) with whatever the manufacturer has superseded it with.

13. ...Updated parts, replacement parts, or any other changes by the manufacturer documented in the parts catalog or other manufacturer documentation as superseding the original part number used when manufactured are considered to be standard parts.​

I'm wondering if Ford has superseded the Boss/Roadrunner long block part number with the Gen3 part number?

 

[S550AZ]

I have thought about this a lot over the last few years and I think the ultimate and least expensive way would be to go Gen 3 new short block, Gen 2 heads with 2018 intake. Have a professional build the motor. Paying the extra $3k - $4k for the expertise is well worth the $$$.

 

[Dave_W]

I think @Fabman had Shaun at AED build his current motor. Pretty sure it's in his huge thread, maybe six months ago?

 

[Fabman]

I think @Fabman had Shaun at AED build his current motor. Pretty sure it's in his huge thread, maybe six months ago?

Yes, a year ago and it’s been pretty awesome for how stock it is.
(gen 2/3 combo) Very happy with that purchase. @Mad Hatter has the sister motor but with boss heads.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Yup, very happy with my motor that Fabman helped me get.. But my ported Boss heads did not make it to the new motor. Shaun built mine with a pair of Livernoise stage 2 ported gen 1 heads, as no Gen 2 were available at the time. The Livernoise heads are with the Gen2 valves in any case. Apart from that, its pretty much the same motor as @Fabmans.

 

[Fabman]

Yup, very happy with my motor that Fabman helped me get.. But my ported Boss heads did not make it to the new motor. Shaun built mine with a pair of Livernoise stage 2 ported gen 1 heads, as no Gen 2 were available at the time. The Livernoise heads are with the Gen2 valves in any case. Apart from that, its pretty much the same motor as @Fabmans.

They make almost exactly the same power so I guess the ported boss heads are as good as the ported gen 2 heads.