No rear sway bar

[further]

I'm not sure if others have had the same experience but I noticed the following over the last two track sessions with a square setup:

18 mm rear sway and tires all the same pressure (35 hot) - Lots of rear play. The oversteer was improved but still significant.

Stock rear (24 mm I believe) and rears 2 to 3 less than the front - Rear much more stable. Oversteer more improved than the above.

I will try the 18 mm rear sway (or no rear) with stiffer springs, but tire pressure will be my goto parameter first.

 

[Tri-bar]

No one implied your car was slow I was referencing my statement about guys who continually tighten their car up and when all is said and done they have car that is so tight it won't come off the corners and hence, will not carry enough straightaway speed into the next corner.

I agree with you on that one. Have seen it many times.

 

[Tri-bar]

I'm not sure if others have had the same experience but I noticed the following over the last two track sessions with a square setup:

18 mm rear sway and tires all the same pressure (35 hot) - Lots of rear play. The oversteer was improved but still significant.

Stock rear (24 mm I believe) and rears 2 to 3 less than the front - Rear much more stable. Oversteer more improved than the above.

I will try the 18 mm rear sway (or no rear) with stiffer springs, but tire pressure will be my goto parameter first.

Swap out your T-springs for MM R&T springs, you have Koni's already. I know it's a proven setup. However my Friend and I have a lot more going on with our cars. The rest of setup is more like the Grand Am cars without the coil-over's. With MM springs the front Strano bar will work great with the 18mm rear. I run normal tire pressures cold about 32* and start adjusting from there by taking Tire temps. with 1.5 to 3 * camber tire wear has been very good. The ride is not bad at all, Mine's, my daily driver.

 

[Roadhouse]

I just completed my second track day with no rear sway bar and I wanted to recap my experience to all of you.

Now that I was used to the characteristics of the car with no bar, I was really able to hammer down on the throttle on corner exit and have faith that it would stick. I'm amazed at how well this car can power out a corner. I was even starting to feel the car left up the front inside tire when coming out of certain corners, which was a wild feeling the first few times. It never upset the handling/balance of the car but it leans and you can feel it lift then drop again. I saw some pics from the track photog at the end of the day and I was getting a good amount of air under the inside tire. Looks really cool in pics! Ordered, will post as soon as I get them). I really only have a basic knowledge of suspension setups, and I feel like the setup on my car is pretty basic, but ultimately I'm not sure if 3-wheelin it is a good or bad thing.

In my simple mind, logic seems to tell me that 4 wheels on the ground is better than 3. But at the same time how much traction am I getting from the inside tire if it's only barely touching the ground? My thoughts are that I need to tame down the tire lift a bit. Maybe stiffen the rear shocks a bit to help deter the lift and address the small amount of push that I'm getting on corner exit. I really don't want to change very much because my lap times are faster than they have ever been and I have so much confidence in the car coming out of a corner. It's hoot to drive. Anyway, just wanted to share and see what others thought about this.

On the first corner of this video you can see the car lean really hard on corner exit when the tire lifts. Bad camera angle, sorry

[youtube]http://youtu.be/O7CTOcCCJDE[/youtube]

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

Were your lap times faster or slower?

Also what are your spring rates?

 

[Roadhouse]

Laps times were faster, with older tires and passenger.

Spring rates are 325/285. Konis are set very soft front and rear

 

[blacksheep-1]

I just completed my second track day with no rear sway bar and I wanted to recap my experience to all of you.

Now that I was used to the characteristics of the car with no bar, I was really able to hammer down on the throttle on corner exit and have faith that it would stick. I'm amazed at how well this car can power out a corner. I was even starting to feel the car left up the front inside tire when coming out of certain corners, which was a wild feeling the first few times. It never upset the handling/balance of the car but it leans and you can feel it lift then drop again. I saw some pics from the track photog at the end of the day and I was getting a good amount of air under the inside tire. looked like I could lay down under it lol :-* (Looks really cool in pics! Ordered, will post as soon as I get them). I really only have a basic knowledge of suspension setups, and I feel like the setup on my car is pretty basic, but ultimately I'm not sure if 3-wheelin it is a good or bad thing.




In my simple mind, logic seems to tell me that 4 wheels on the ground is better than 3. But at the same time how much traction am I getting from the inside tire if it's only barely touching the ground? My thoughts are that I need to tame down the tire lift a bit. Maybe stiffen the rear shocks a bit to help deter the lift and address the small amount of push that I'm getting on corner exit. I really don't want to change very much because my lap times are faster than they have ever been and I have so much confidence in the car coming out of a corner. It's hoot to drive. Anyway, just wanted to share and see what others thought about this.

On the first corner of this video you can see the car lean really hard on corner exit when the tire lifts. Bad camera angle, sorry

[youtube]http://youtu.be/O7CTOcCCJDE[/youtube]

It's a good thing.. congrats on reaching another step in handling zen

 

[Roadhouse]

Thanks for chiming in, Blacksheep! I was hoping you would respond

 

[steveespo]

Load those rear tires, get some of the weight off of the fonts and make all 4 tires share the load. The real zen is not being abrupt with the weight transfer, you are a quick driver roadhouse, perfect these techniques and you will get even faster. I spent hours watching the GS cars at Lime Rock and how they transfer weight with all three controls, throttle, brakes and steering, their mastery of this is why they are 5-10 seconds faster than most of us on a given course.(Not Gary) Keep after it, I too wish to someday be a quick driver.
Steve

 

[blacksheep-1]

and FWIW check out pic 2 and where the "continental" writing is on the bottom of the tire. (with respect to the location to where the car is in the corner)

If I knew what day that pic was taken I could nail the tire pressure.....(well no I couldn't on the net)

 

[06mach1]

blacksheep, I like this pic better... talk about grip and look at the weight transfer accelerating out of turn 9 at the Glen.

 

[blacksheep-1]

blacksheep, I like this pic better... talk about grip and look at the weight transfer accelerating out of turn 9 at the Glen.

I was looking for that one..couldn't find it.

 

[Roadhouse]

Load those rear tires, get some of the weight off of the fonts and make all 4 tires share the load. The real zen is not being abrupt with the weight transfer, you are a quick driver roadhouse, perfect these techniques and you will get even faster. I spent hours watching the GS cars at Lime Rock and how they transfer weight with all three controls, throttle, brakes and steering, their mastery of this is why they are 5-10 seconds faster than most of us on a given course.(Not Gary) Keep after it, I too wish to someday be a quick driver.
Steve

Thanks for the input, Steve. Hell, these cars make it easy to be fast Smooth is fast...

 

[Roadhouse]

blacksheep, I like this pic better... talk about grip and look at the weight transfer accelerating out of turn 9 at the Glen.

Bad ass 8)

 

[Roadhouse]

 

[cloud9]

Load those rear tires, get some of the weight off of the fonts and make all 4 tires share the load. The real zen is not being abrupt with the weight transfer, you are a quick driver roadhouse, perfect these techniques and you will get even faster. I spent hours watching the GS cars at Lime Rock and how they transfer weight with all three controls, throttle, brakes and steering, their mastery of this is why they are 5-10 seconds faster than most of us on a given course.(Not Gary) Keep after it, I too wish to someday be a quick driver.
Steve

I still have plenty to learn on the weight transfer technique myself. I do it intuitively, but wish I could learn the technical aspects of mastering it at will. Riding along with Gunnar Jeannette at Track Attack showed me what true mastery of that skill is all about. For example, it felt like he could literally stand the car on its front left tire on right hand turns and carve a trench in the ashpalt.

 

[2013dibgt]

How much do you feel having a roll bar in the car plays in it lifting the front tire?

I'll give someone a dollar to do that in the older mustangs that isn't a full blown race car ;D

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

How stiff are you running your front bar? In a C&D article a couple months back, Joe Foster was saying they ran the front bar on their 302R very stiff and the rear no bar or very small bar.

This is all very intriguing and I may give this a shot next time out...we'll see.

 

[Grant 302]

Those pictures are really making me want to change my anti-squat ways...

 

[blacksheep-1]

How much do you feel having a roll bar in the car plays in it lifting the front tire?

I'll give someone a dollar to do that in the older mustangs that isn't a full blown race car ;D

If you are talking about a "roll over bar" and not a "anti roll bar"" ( the correct name for what we call sway bars) it makes a big difference especially in the older mustangs, I have a 99 cobra and a 93 Fox body..whole new world. You can actually jack the car up without bending it in half.

The project....http://drivefast.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1650