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NT01 or ToyoRR

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Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
8,425
8,354
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Blair, Nebraska
Paddy is one sharp dude , a fast shoe, yet I will disagree with him concerning the NT01 since he is in California , the unfortunate drought Capital of the US. Toyo is the parent company and Nitto is under their umbrella and often folks think they are the same tire with just more carcass on the Nitto. First, the Nitto is absolutely an ice skate in the rain, really no better than the Toyo RR - seen in practice in the wet Midwest. Nitto states in their own literature that the tire is not conducive to wet weather, but one of the best things I tell folks to do is to go right to their website ( just Google NT-01 ) and pull up their own info on the tire and read the marketing. This is where folks wondered if it was a Toyo RR with more rubber, because once you view their discussion on shaving the tire for track events, if you are super serious, it looks like a RR clone. Save your money, buy the Toyo RRs and the very best reason in this day of short supplies is that the Toyo tires are almost always plentiful , whereas even in the past, the Nittos have seen shortages. Being a Spec Tire , the Toyo production is huge and as one who has scambled to find a tire I was running over the years I view availability as a big strength on what I purchase.
 

PaddyPrix

If breakin' parts is cool, consider me Miles Davis
725
1,081
Exp. Type
Time Attack
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Under 3 Years
San Diego
First, the Nitto is absolutely an ice skate in the rain, really no better than the Toyo RR - seen in practice in the wet Midwest.
Great points pretty much per usual. Looking back I should have put a wet rating system. The RR wet rating would be nine out of ten brown paddypants, and NT01 would be a solid 8 and 3/4. 💩

Beauty of time attack/trial is that we can just sit the session out and hope it passes at some point. I guess in the rain you'll find out who understands the physics behind the wet line.
 
60
48
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Reno, NV
Toyo RR 295/30 worked good even for cold windy day (CA standards). Did not have any tire issues. Started with 28 cold and ended with 34 hot, looked and worked good so did not try going up or down.
I did not like extra shifting in some parts of the track due to tire diameter. Need to get hand on 305/35.
I did have some issues with brakes and not sure if it is ABS or caliper or something else. Applying brakes was fine but when I would release pedal car would pull right for moment making it unsettled entering corners. It felt like one caliper is not releasing in same time as other. Also found brake fluid on valve cover, looks like it is pissing through reservoir cap.
 
Also found brake fluid on valve cover, looks like it is pissing through reservoir cap.
One thing to check on the brake fluid getting out of the reservoir... There is a small notch to let air under the cap (from memory, sorry if I have the exact position wrong). I found that if I cranked down on the cap, it pushes the rubber "vacuum" washer into the ID of the opening, so fluid can then get out through the notch. I now put the cap on snug and put some high-tech blue painters tape over the cap so I know it's not moving! 😉
 

Fair

Go Big or Go Home
Supporting Vendor
277
492
Plano, TX
Am I the only one scratching his head at some of the tire advice in this thread? The various tires from Toyo and Nitto are all hot garbage, and even their "100 Treadwear" stuff is slower than the current crop of fast "200 Treadwear" tires. Abysmal.

i-W7jKST9-XL.jpg

Toyo RA1/RR tires are so bad that Toyo has to BUY into Spec series to make people use them. This tire family hasn't been significantly updated since the 1990s. THREE DECADES.

P9161081-S.jpgi-C9gjGM8-S.jpg

I did two seasons of back-to-back testing with various 200TW tires vs Hoosier R7 and A7 models, all in NASA competition - Saturday on 200TW vs Sunday on Hoosiers. We even sponsored a "street tire" series of classes in NASA Texas for 2 years to help gather data on the various 200TW tires vs Hoosiers.

i-23xc3s7-XL.jpg

NASA took a lot of our competiition data, a lot of their own test data, and came up with these new modifiers for NASA TT / ST competition (see above). Notice how all of the Nitto & Toyo tires are grouped with the slow 200 TW (old Rivals) and even 300 TW (Michelin Pilot Sport 4S) tires? These get the biggest handicap because they are all THAT SLOW. The Toyo / Nitto stuff is all really just glorified HPDE tires - for people who don't care about lap times.

But sure, bench race and talk yourselves into slow tires that also wear poorly. I simply do not understand the fascination with Nittos and Toyos...

IMG_2890-S.jpgIMG_7873-S.jpg

Personally, if I wanted a "long lasting" tire for HPDE, than I'd look at what Endurance racers use (WRL, AER, Luckydog, Champ car, etc). The Continental ECS (above left) is made in LARGE sizes (up to 345mm) and has a very long lasting compound. The Hankook RS4 (above right) is also one that lasts and lasts.... I'm a little disappointed that this made the 1.0 class and not the 1.6, but NASA doesn't always get that stuff 100% right. I have a lot of laps on the RS4, and my best laps usually come in after 7-10 laps - amazing!

13876605_10209942896319598_5888903137432952910_n-S.jpgB61G0336-S.jpg

Now I have no "dog in this fight" - I don't sell tires and stopped selling wheels a while ago. I really don't care if you folks take my opinions seriously, but I am trying to help. If there is someone here on this forum who has done more 200TW vs Hoosier testing, on dozens of tire models, in the sizes of tires that fit Mustangs.... well, I'd sure like to meet them. 🤓

IMG_2893-S.jpgDSC_1393-S.jpg

Otherwise sure, get the R8888888RRR or NT01RXYZ flavor of the month stance tires. :p
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
8,425
8,354
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Blair, Nebraska
Terry, surprisingly a lot of us agree with you quite a bit , as I have not liked Schittos forever, but the one thing that one has to address is that many of the folks asking are just beginning to go to the track, and frankly since the Toyos are a Spec tire , as we both are aware of, it does seem to meet the criteria of longer lasting and reasonably priced for the guy starting. Like you , I think the Continental Force is the way to go, along with the RS-4 ( which are hard to get unless you are aware to contact their racing division direct ). The Falken RT660s seem to be showing some good results with some quick drivers in GridLife, but the one note you mentioned is that the Schittoz and the Toyo RRs are slow , glorified HPDE rubber. That is where the conversation has been mainly and that is why many of us that are not fond of these rubberized donuts have not gotten quite as vocal as you have because a large group are buying them only for that --- HPDEs. Many are very new drivers, and frankly getting folks interested in HPDE , as you know, is just the first step to getting folks into Time Trials. You and I know that once they get to that stage (not the learning and seat time phase they are in now ) a light will go off and they will see the hot ticket tires and their values will change. I have had to restrain myself over the years because I absolutely think Nittos stink, the Toyos are not much better, but then they are part of the same Corporation so no big surprise.

When everything is said, though, those of us who have done this for a very long time , or strong aftermarket companies like yours, have to step back and remember when we began, and often new drivers can't be convinced to go to the hot ticket rubber meats when they begin. Our job as old racers is to get folks involved first, and recommend when we canal hoping some take our advice.

I have been telling folks for 40+ years the first things to do , after seat time , is to get a really good set of competitive tires, aggressive brake pads and high temp fluid, and then do other mods. Sure I throw in a good Camber plate by some guy in Texas with a interesting name, and maybe some brake deflectors , but preaching tires for 40+ years I have come to the conclusion only about 25% will actually listen.

I think the most valuable item you mentioned was just posting the NASA tire guide , it is not perfect , as you note, but it should give some folks an idea about how tires may rate against each other in the real World. The only trick is for our Autocross Trackrats not to get wrapped up in this, since what is good on a road course is not necessarily the answer for cone killing.
 
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PaddyPrix

If breakin' parts is cool, consider me Miles Davis
725
1,081
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
San Diego
Valid points, but given their original post --

Which tire would be better, NT01 305/35 or Toyo RR 295/30?
This are only options I can get before weekend.

There was no room left in their parameters for other tires. Might as well suggest S9m's while at it :D Good call on the Ventus RS4's though, a terrific tire which would be an easy choice, however I don't know what the availability is like with weather warming up and most seasons starting up and Lucky Dog teams are stocking up if they haven't already which could make it a challenge in some sizes. There was a Hoosier shortage for a short while a few weeks ago. You're right in that nobody would really suggest either of the two tires if somebody was looking at competitive lap times, which isn't entirely what it seemed. It would be interesting to create something similar to what Grassroots did with the performance chart/ranking of different tires and groups, perhaps doing some sort of bang/buck comparison that brings in used race scrubs, Achilles, Federal, Maxxis, and all the other cheap tires for people that just want to turn laps and get the cheapest seat time. For that, something going 24+ heat cycles would be the goal, no?

As for the NASA 1.0 vs 1.6 classing, I'm pretty sure they were going off a whole bunch of laps, looking at what various class winners were using, and with NASA having WERC overlaid in many events (at least out there) there was data available. Not sure if that was Ryan or Greg, or a mixture of them and the rest, but I'll ask as I should see them this weekend, but I'm going to guess that the RS4 drivers consistently did better than the 1.6 camp, which might be different parts driver, different parts car, enough that they bumped it up a group. Is it on the same pace as an A052? I don't know, but I know an A052 isn't on the same pace as a 3R/A7/R7 that make up most of the DOT +0 camp. At some point last year, they wanted to further bury/incentivize the RR because it was near impossible to win on them, and everybody (well, at least for TT) was picking up 3R's which had a sweet spot carved for it with how the rules at the time worked.
 
60
48
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Reno, NV
Like PaddyPrix say, I had no choices. Decide to do track day with car I had not driven before and could not get many choices. It was my first time out after 6 years and just wanted to go out learn car and have some fun. I have run many of those listed in past. Last time out I run RE71 in practices and Hoosier for putting fast lap in.
6 years ago I did 3:19 with Cayman on Hosiers. Yesterday on same track I was 9 seconds slower with boss and Toyo RR but I am happy with that. I did what I went for, to feel car and find what I need to change. Once I figure what is wrong with brakes I will get some better rubber.
Also I am not interested in going racing full time so I need some balance between longevity and grip :)
 

Fair

Go Big or Go Home
Supporting Vendor
277
492
Plano, TX
Terry, surprisingly a lot of us agree with you quite a bit , as I have not liked Schittos forever, but the one thing that one has to address is that many of the folks asking are just beginning to go to the track ...

When everything is said, though, those of us who have done this for a very long time , or strong aftermarket companies like yours, have to step back and remember when we began, and often new drivers can't be convinced to go to the hot ticket rubber meats when they begin. Our job as old racers is to get folks involved first, and recommend when we canal hoping some take our advice.

Good points, I just saw the OP asking "which is better" and it wasn't clear he meant "longer life". To me, "better" starts with one thing: Lower Lap Times. Maybe it was deeper in his post or a follow up post, but this being the Road Race section I took it to mean "what makes me faster".

IMG_3917-L.jpg

After so many years doing this, most of the faster drivers work their way out of HPDE and into TT or W2W club racing. And unless it is a Spec class with a bought-and-paid-for Spec Tire, there's generally one tire to choose from: Hoosier. That class restrictions and duration of the competition (TT vs W2W) then let's you choose between the R7 or A7.

i-32fmRqc-L.jpg

Every time a new company jumps into the Tire Wars (in the DOT R-compound segment) there are big claims of "this is faster than a Hoosier and wears longer". It never actually pans out - Goodyear is the latest usurper, and they are NOT on pace. Before that it was Maxxis, then there was Hankook, then BFG R1S... I can list a dozen more going back 2 decades.

i-CxhR7wC-L.jpg

If you look back into the early 1990s, when we were all passing advice on email list servs, I was preaching "run the biggest tire the class allows". I never wavered from this, and even for HPDE this is still the best advice. Run as much width as you can afford, then pick the brand / tire model / compound that fits your needs and budget. Wider tires always last longer than narrower tires, HPDE vs competition.

i-gb7nHmh-L.jpg

But even HPDE students usually have a "goal" of proceeding up through the ranks, eventually they get a good lap timer ... and usually end up getting into some timed competition, even if it is a low effort local time trial program. I don't understand people that stay in HPDE forever... beyond a decade, without coaching, you aren't learning anything. Just making noise. It takes looking at lap times and even a bit of competition to progress. There are no winners in HPDE. Maybe my programming is just wrong, maybe there is joy in "just making laps" without looking at times? Maybe people play golf and never keep score? I dunno. I am probably broken... o_O

i-5K3WHpK-L.jpg

Anyway, my advice comes from a place where every HPDE entrants will eventually start to care about lap times. Noobies need a harder. longer wearing, CONSISTENT tire, of course. I never recommend R-compounds or 100TW tires to anyone starting out. Staying off of "slicks" (which some folks mistakenly call R-comp DOTs) is a good idea until you have 2-5 years of serious HPDE experience under your belt. And with 300 TW tires that wear well the students can get the much needed SEAT TIME we all preach... (that they never listen to!)

i-7wbBvPj-L.jpg

And as we all know, when it comes to lap times, that is where Nitto and Toyo do not excel. I even have doubts as to their long term wear vs cost. There are several things I look at when choosing a tire:
  1. Cost vs Speed
  2. Cost vs Wear
  3. Diameter and width options
  4. Short vs Long Stint (how quick do they heat up / overheat)
There are other less important aspects as well, like tread pattern / water use, sidewall stiffness / "turn in feel", but the above list is the main bit. You only look at #1 if you are broke. If you want to win, there is NO BETTER way than to spend budget on TIRES. We do all of the suspension work we do JUST to make the tires work more efficiently, but you can't win a race on the wrong tire. #2 is the feature we look at, again, when budget matters. #3 is my most important trait to look at, and we literally build a car from the ground up by choosing the tire FIRST. Then order wheels to make them fit. #4 is where new HPDE folks need to focus - don't by a stick tire, nothing more than 200TW, and likely closer to 300. Endurance folks also look at #4.

I have been telling folks for 40+ years the first things to do , after seat time , is to get a really good set of competitive tires, aggressive brake pads and high temp fluid, and then do other mods. Sure I throw in a good Camber plate by some guy in Texas with a interesting name, and maybe some brake deflectors , but preaching tires for 40+ years I have come to the conclusion only about 25% will actually listen.

I think the most valuable item you mentioned was just posting the NASA tire guide , it is not perfect , as you note, but it should give some folks an idea about how tires may rate against each other in the real World. The only trick is for our Autocross Trackrats not to get wrapped up in this, since what is good on a road course is not necessarily the answer for cone killing.

Good advice as usual, Bill. I wish people listened to us old farts who have "been there" and "done that", but they have some new "influencers" to follow sometimes.

DSC02889-S.jpgIMG_5181-S.jpg

I do feel there is some crossover from autocross to road course, some tire models work well at both, but you are right - the Heat Up time is super critical in autocross (and Time Trial!) but not beneficial for longer stints on track. I still send my new HPDE students to go do autocrosses to learn Car Control. I am not ashamed to say that I am an autocrosser first, time trial nut second, W2W goober third.

Cheers,
 
60
48
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Reno, NV
But even HPDE students usually have a "goal" of proceeding up through the ranks, eventually they get a good lap timer ... and usually end up getting into some timed competition, even if it is a low effort local time trial program. I don't understand people that stay in HPDE forever... beyond a decade, without coaching, you aren't learning anything. Just making noise. It takes looking at lap times and even a bit of competition to progress. There are no winners in HPDE. Maybe my programming is just wrong, maybe there is joy in "just making laps" without looking at times? Maybe people play golf and never keep score? I dunno. I am probably broken... o_O
There are people that would love to do that but can't afford progress. There are also people that just want to do it for fun.
Than there are people like me, getting old but still need some speed fix from time to time :). I roadraced motorcycles for 25 years straight, got burned out, got old and don't want to ride any more. Started doing cars, did some HPDE, time trials with local SCCA and bunch of Lemon races with friends just for fun. Burned out again and switched to desert, SxS blasting through desert kept blood flowing for few years but got tired of that as well. Now I am back to cars again :). Past the point for full on competition but still like to challenge myself and try me best without pressure.
So, my programing was same as your but latest software update sucks :)
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
8,425
8,354
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Blair, Nebraska
Terry, never good to talk about Politics or Religion on a Forum, but your reference, apparently drawn from the Broadway Play , " Book of Mormon," is incorrect. Since I am a bit older than you , maybe a tiny bit wiser, I wanted to let you know that is a reference from the A7th Day Adventist Church of the Holy Rubber Rollers!!

Autocrosser first, Time Trialer Second, W2W goober Third, and I don't care what you do, that there sentence above is funny!!
 
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60
48
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Reno, NV
One thing to check on the brake fluid getting out of the reservoir... There is a small notch to let air under the cap (from memory, sorry if I have the exact position wrong). I found that if I cranked down on the cap, it pushes the rubber "vacuum" washer into the ID of the opening, so fluid can then get out through the notch. I now put the cap on snug and put some high-tech blue painters tape over the cap so I know it's not moving! 😉
My is not that way. It does not screw on, it is like radiator cap, 1/4 turn and locks in to spot. I did look in to rubber deforming but that does not look like to be case. There are 2 tin lines for air to get between cap and rubber but problem is not there. I think reservoir surface where rubber sits is to narrow where notched for cap and probably with heat not sealing good.
I just made delrin ring to put between rubber and cap (motorcycle reservoirs have this plastic washer) so it should put more pressure on rubber and in same time make sure rubber does not block air passages.

IMG_4804.jpeg
 
@TWF Thanks for the detail. I've got an S550, and I assume you must have an S197. I like that quarter-turn better! I have to just not over-tighten. I had a 2008 Shelby GT that I tracked, but I just don't remember the quarter-turn cap.
 
52
45
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Bay Area
Might be a little late to this thread, but wanted to add my 2 cents.

As @Fair has stated, the NT01 is NOT going to be your ticket if you are looking for absolute tire durability and wear. You're going to want to look at the ECF or the RS4 for those options. They'll easily beat the overall lifespan of the NT01.

That said, I'm of the belief that the NT01 still serves a role in this market for the HPDE enthusiast that wants a touch more performance than the RS4 or the ECF without committing to hoosier-levels of consumable costs or resorting to a super-200tw "cheater tire" with their [generally] terrible heat tolerance.

GRM's https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/track-tire-buyers-guide/ article does a great job at categorizing these tires, and their quote for the "Endurance 100s" sums it all up:
This category is a tick faster than the Endurance 200s, yet still in it for the long haul. While these tires don’t meet the 200tw requirement often found in endurance racing, they can still work for those doing lap days.

More importantly for me: the NT01 for the most part grips consistently TO THE CORDS, only being minimally affected by heat cycles. Although the RS4 is a durable beast of a tire, it'll start to heat cycle out around the same time the NT01 will cord (citing personal experience with the NT01 in parallel with anecdotal experience from my RS4 friends). For sure, the RS4 will still have plenty of tread and somewhat decent performance after. NT01s last me around 10 track days (compared to the 16 days my RS4 friends have on their tires before they threw them out, still with plenty of tread left on them). But personally, I'll take the consistency and extra speed over the extended life.

From personal experience: The NT01 has been around 2 seconds a lap faster for me than the ECF -- note that this time delta is not a reliable measurement as the laps were done on different days in different conditions and weather.
 
26
37
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
3-5 Years
Canton, Michigan
My is not that way. It does not screw on, it is like radiator cap, 1/4 turn and locks in to spot. I did look in to rubber deforming but that does not look like to be case. There are 2 tin lines for air to get between cap and rubber but problem is not there. I think reservoir surface where rubber sits is to narrow where notched for cap and probably with heat not sealing good.
I just made delrin ring to put between rubber and cap (motorcycle reservoirs have this plastic washer) so it should put more pressure on rubber and in same time make sure rubber does not block air passages.

View attachment 74567
Yeah, I didn't realize how much I was spilling out of my reservoir until I removed the sound tube. I'm not happy, but it's also not the end of the world. Did your fix end up working? I saw someone at the last track day zip tie a paper towel to the reservoir. I did that too and it seemed to catch a lot of brake fluid.
1657733471068.png
 
60
48
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Reno, NV
It fixed most of it, still very small leak last track day. I will make slightly thicker ring.
I have same paint problem on that spot. Also was spraying on valve cover. Last time after fix it was just little wet on valve cover side under the cap.
 

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