Welcome to Track Mustangs Online

Join the BEST track enthusiast Mustang community on the web!

Register Log in

Oh Snap! 2018 Mustang GT PP1 vs. Camaro ILE

VoodooBoss

Rick
Moderator
Messages
21,337
Reaction score
3,589
Location
90 Miles East of Sonoma Raceway

bpracer

Mark
Messages
472
Reaction score
364
Location
DFW, TX
It's hard to beat a car with tires three sizes larger, that are stickier, in a car that weighs 100lbs more. The PP2 should be the PP1. I guess they are protecting the GT350 while it's still in production.

Add a GT350 intake (as in the Bullitt) and the PP2 will be pretty competent.
 

JDee

Ancient Racer
Messages
672
Reaction score
572
Location
halfway between Mosport and Shannonville
The big deal in the Camaro to me is that any SS (V8) comes with aux coolers on engine, trans and diff. That is something that should have made it onto the PP2. I realize Ford is trying to brand it as something less than a GT350, but their messaging is going to encourage people to push them hard on a track and there's going to be lots of limp mode going on if the experience with the GT350 non R/non Track Pack is anything to be guided by.

The really bad part about the Camaro is how fugly the dang thing is and the interior/ergonomics/visibility/old school low tech motor. With incentives up here you can get an SS1 1LE for about $3K less than a PP1, let alone a PP2. Mostly due to Ford's weird "to get this you have to also take that" policy this year.
 

TymeSlayer

Tramps like us, Baby we were born to run...
Messages
3,109
Reaction score
1,738
Location
Brighton, Colorado
Reminds me of this diddy...

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So from my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

Spoken:
Say man!
Hey baby!
I saw your wife the other day!
Yeah?
Yeah, an' she's ug-leeee!
Yeah, she's ugly, but she sure can cook, baby!
Yeah, alright!
 

ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
Moderator
Messages
8,414
Reaction score
2,144
Location
Arizona, USA
The big deal in the Camaro to me is that any SS (V8) comes with aux coolers on engine, trans and diff. That is something that should have made it onto the PP2. I realize Ford is trying to brand it as something less than a GT350, but their messaging is going to encourage people to push them hard on a track and there's going to be lots of limp mode going on if the experience with the GT350 non R/non Track Pack is anything to be guided by.

The really bad part about the Camaro is how fugly the dang thing is and the interior/ergonomics/visibility/old school low tech motor. With incentives up here you can get an SS1 1LE for about $3K less than a PP1, let alone a PP2. Mostly due to Ford's weird "to get this you have to also take that" policy this year.
Unfortunately, the complaints about the Camaro are purely subjective--and the complaints about the Mustang are quantifiable. Not to mention the disparity in cost. I am not a GM fanboy but the LS and LT series engines should not be dismissed as "low tech". The mountain of torque they create can be very useful even at 2500 RPM.
 

2012-Boss

TMO Addict
Messages
707
Reaction score
309
Unfortunately, the complaints about the Camaro are purely subjective--and the complaints about the Mustang are quantifiable. Not to mention the disparity in cost. I am not a GM fanboy but the LS and LT series engines should not be dismissed as "low tech". The mountain of torque they create can be very useful even at 2500 RPM.
I was hesitant to post on this subject, mostly because I have not had the most positive things to say concerning Ford Mustang development vs the Camaro and Corvette over the past couple of years.

I would not say that the current LS engines are low tech. Yes, they are a single camshaft and pushrod engines; but, they make great torque and have great size and weight to power ratios.

The coyote series motors are 5.0L and weight approximately 444 lbs. The LT1 / LS engines are 6.2L and weight 465 lbs. So, the GM engines win in a power production to engine weight contest. They are also not as wide as the coyote. (Correction, with the new Coyote HP rating, the Coyote has a very slight advantage. But, I think most will get the point).

The coyote series motors have great valvetrain stability and cylinder head flow. Those are the two biggest reasons they have such good RPM potential.

Having said that, I would rather have the Ford engine. But, I wouldn't avoid the Camaro just because of the engine.

The Camaro also is a better value. They cost less than the Mustang with better suspension tuning with factory installed engine, transmission, and differential coolers. I would also have a lot more faith in the durability of the Camaro's Tremec transmission vs the Ford MT-82.

I really do not want a Camaro or Corvette, but unless Ford steps up their offerings, that is what my next track car will be. I really hate the ergonomics of both of these cars, but would live with it for the track.

I am not buying another Ford simply to spend thousands of dollars plus my time to fabricate and install proper cooling systems for track duty and then even more money and time to sort out the suspension shortfalls.

Yes, there is the GT350. But, I really do not want to spend that much for a track car, and that is assuming I can get one for MSRP. For $10K less than a GT350, I can buy a Corvette Grand Sport.
 
Last edited:

RES_22

Rob
Messages
239
Reaction score
235
Location
Snowy North
Drove “that” Camaro @ Mosport last summer... a couple of months after driving a very nice (#58) 350R.

The Camaro is stunning value. Shame on Ford for not offering the PP2 as the sole non-350 “performance” option. The PP1, as Steve McQueen said, “is just waiting”...for something better.
 

TMSBOSS

TMO Addict
Messages
4,775
Reaction score
1,781
Location
Illinois
If you look in my garage you will see both a Mustang and a Corvette. Yea, I know....Make up my mind. Nope. BTW, I owned my first Vette in 1977. Still have one in my garage. Love the C-3s.

Both manufacturers make a good product for the track rat. What sold me on Ford and soured me on GM is the service after the sale. How many track rats have towed their Ford with Tech inspection stickers on the glass and received a new motor under warranty, NQA? Does GM do the same?

And lets be real guys. How many of us can get 10-10ths out of our cars? The difference in performance is closer than the difference in drivers.

If you are going to buy the Chevy, I hope she holds up and you have a great experience both on and off track. Same with the Fords. The differences are most prominent during "Bench Racing".
 
Last edited:

RES_22

Rob
Messages
239
Reaction score
235
Location
Snowy North
Had a C6 Z06... Ti con rod “dusting” issues that led to a spectacular blown engine at VIR. Not cool.

GM VP was there and promised to help. Came back to GM Canada and was told to f*ck off”.

See ya GM.
 

JDee

Ancient Racer
Messages
672
Reaction score
572
Location
halfway between Mosport and Shannonville
My low tech comment was strictly due to it having pushrods and 2 valves in an era when pretty much everything has two overhead cams and 4 valves. I realize that engine makes great power and being more compact than the Coyote may provide a bit of a handling advantage as well. Despite the styling negatives, the 1LE is very impressive as a track car.

I never owned a Mustang until a couple years ago, now I've had 2. I've never owned a Chev anything, let alone a Camaro, but if I was going to buy something new this year I'd definitely be going to see my local Chevalay guy. For the price the 1SS 1LE is phenomenal value.
 

JDee

Ancient Racer
Messages
672
Reaction score
572
Location
halfway between Mosport and Shannonville
Reminds me of this diddy...

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So from my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

Spoken:
Say man!
Hey baby!
I saw your wife the other day!
Yeah?
Yeah, an' she's ug-leeee!
Yeah, she's ugly, but she sure can cook, baby!
Yeah, alright!

Jeez Tyme, I've had this ear worm stuck in there since I read this post!
 

k98dave

TMO Addict
Messages
549
Reaction score
90
Location
FORT WORTH TEXAS
Lest we forget NASCAR runs those single cam pushrod motors, but low tech they are not. At the local level I have to say witnessed more of them break than the 5.0's Not sure if that's related to cooling problems the Vett's seem to have.
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
Messages
3,686
Reaction score
2,215
Location
Blair, Nebraska
I have to grudgingly give GM their due in that they constantly put the least expensive denominator in the equation ( compared to other performance mods) by loading the chassis with oversized sugar sticky donuts. Those that track know the difference tires can make and I would conservatively wager that the PSC2s are easily 2 seconds faster than the regular rubber. PP Level 2 will definitely , imho, close the gap, but understand some folks reluctance to spend a bit more money.

Unlike Tyme ( and I love his humor) , I want to wake up next to the pretty girl. The Paper Sack 1 LE I just don't want to be seen in public with ---- pretty sure I would have to constantly hear from her , " Why don't you ever take me out?"
 

JDee

Ancient Racer
Messages
672
Reaction score
572
Location
halfway between Mosport and Shannonville
Well-l-l-l-l-l-l, I was seriously thinking that I might cross the Styx and go to the dark side, did a lot of reading and made a few calls, most sales people didn't even know what a 1LE is! But I just can't get my head around the looks of that car, the Mustang is so-o-o-o-o-o much easier on the eyes. Looks like I'd lose $20K at least on the deal, and if I put that $20K into my car I think I can make something that would beat the 1LE head to head, at minimum certainly keep up with it and still be a relatively decent road car, easy on the eyes and easy to see out of. I already wake up next to the pretty girl, but I'd get to have one in the garage too!;)
 

smallblock

TMO Race
Messages
208
Reaction score
183
Location
Detroit
Well-l-l-l-l-l-l, I was seriously thinking that I might cross the Styx and go to the dark side, did a lot of reading and made a few calls, most sales people didn't even know what a 1LE is! But I just can't get my head around the looks of that car, the Mustang is so-o-o-o-o-o much easier on the eyes. Looks like I'd lose $20K at least on the deal, and if I put that $20K into my car I think I can make something that would beat the 1LE head to head, at minimum certainly keep up with it and still be a relatively decent road car, easy on the eyes and easy to see out of. I already wake up next to the pretty girl, but I'd get to have one in the garage too!;)
Here's vid of my full weight road 2011 GT vs. Camaro ZL1 @ 0:45. I don't give up much in the corners which should be similar to SS 1LE, but the ZL1 650 horsepower destroys me on the straight. $20,000 in mods would be able to level the playing field tho ;). Max effort race engine, some aero, some weight reduction, boom done. Regarding style I agree, you have to go with the one that will make you look back after parking it. (The Mustang)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="
" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
Messages
3,686
Reaction score
2,215
Location
Blair, Nebraska
We had a couple of 1LEs at our Chevy Store. Both were around 46K in real life, so not a lot of difference to a PP Level II --- I think we have 3-4 ordered that are around 48K if I remember correctly. I know the loaded one is a bit under 52.
 

8250RPM

TMO Addict
Messages
565
Reaction score
160
Location
South East Michigan
The argument of the weight and size between the coyote / voodoo vs the LS / LT is so stupid.
Let me explain.
1) the coyote / voodoo make more power per cubic inch.

2) the weight of the coyote / voodoo is lighter.

3) the overall dimension of the coyote / voodoo in a mustang vs a LS / LT In a camaro? Who cares!
We’re talking factory fit cars here not engine swaps in resto mods and street rods.
Besides I seen plenty of coyotes in both street rods and restomods.

GM can not compare to the mighty ford mod motor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

TMO Supporting Vendors

Top