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Oil Cooler Question ???

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JScheier

Too Hot for the Boss!
steveespo said:
If we can copy the FRPP bracket then there is a wide range of Setrab cooler that can fit it from 19000-96000 btu capacity.

While I can appreciate your approach, copying FRPP or any other company's parts is pretty lame. In the case of FRPP, they do a TON to help us racers out. They invest the R&D to productize things we need. They drop what they are doing at races to help us out. They return phone calls on Sunday afternoon when you are stuck in the middle of a project.

Taking away from their profits by copying their parts is pretty uncool....

My $0.02.
 
JScheier said:
While I can appreciate your approach, copying FRPP or any other company's parts is pretty lame. In the case of FRPP, they do a TON to help us racers out. They invest the R&D to productize things we need. They drop what they are doing at races to help us out. They return phone calls on Sunday afternoon when you are stuck in the middle of a project.

Taking away from their profits by copying their parts is pretty uncool....

My $0.02.

Completely makes sense, however a bracket is not a huge thing to copy, plus if you can build the same kit for half the cost then there is no reason for them charge what they do.
 
JScheier said:
While I can appreciate your approach, copying FRPP or any other company's parts is pretty lame. In the case of FRPP, they do a TON to help us racers out. They invest the R&D to productize things we need. They drop what they are doing at races to help us out. They return phone calls on Sunday afternoon when you are stuck in the middle of a project.

Taking away from their profits by copying their parts is pretty uncool....

My $0.02.

Agreed.

However, there is a fundamental shortcoming to the FRPP offering for Bosses that see cold weather...no thermostat..

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am looking to build a better mouse trap.
 

JScheier

Too Hot for the Boss!
VTBoss302 said:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I am looking to build a better mouse trap.

... and that's fine... that's how the industry grows and we will all benefit from it. But copying something and then (as the thread progresses) sell that as part of a kit?

[quote author=Brandon302]Completely makes sense, however a bracket is not a huge thing to copy, plus if you can build the same kit for half the cost then there is no reason for them charge what they do.[/quote]

Think of it this way... several members on this board operate small businesses that are designing parts 'needed' by our racing community. Do you think Kendall would appreciate it if you copied his part(s) and resold them? Is that fair to Kendall? How about the fire extinguisher brackets or tow hook mounts? Not a huge thing to copy, but is it right?

Just because it is FRPP doesn't make it any different.
 
JScheier said:
Think of it this way... several members on this board operate small businesses that are designing parts 'needed' by our racing community. Do you think Kendall would appreciate it if you copied his part(s) and resold them? Is that fair to Kendall? How about the fire extinguisher brackets or tow hook mounts? Not a huge thing to copy, but is it right?

Just because it is FRPP doesn't make it any different.

Alright, so if someone didn't buy the kit from FRPP and make a jig to make brackets but came up with the exact same design themselves but it was the same piece, then what? Again I understand where you are coming from on stealing designs being wrong, however their design isn't revolutionary in it's construction. Also it sounds like the kit they have is not made up of anything made by Ford, so if someone came up with the same parts for cheaper, then Ford is just SOL.
 
There's nothing wrong with DIY but to copy someone else's design and sell it is not cool. Carry on.
 
JScheier said:
... and that's fine... that's how the industry grows and we will all benefit from it. But copying something and then (as the thread progresses) sell that as part of a kit?

Does it sound like I am trying to sell something???

I am not. Perhaps this last bit was not directed at me???

Anyhoo, I am an ardent and fanatic supporter of FRPP. They are my "go to" source for aftermarket wares.

However, they are not always able to provide that which I require.

I will refrain from further comment so as not to muddy up this thread any further.
 

Bill Pemberton

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Have to agree completely with John S. Always amazes me when folks copy and then don't understand when they come afoul of patent laws. Large or small , when someone supports the racing community and then another copies their product , it leaves little incentive to continue to make things for track addicts.

Lastly , we cut off a company we had done some business with, not realizing they were copying tons of items others had made. They were, in fact, taking the originals and sending over to China. It took two inferior reproductions to find out they were pawning off poor replicas as originals -- went so far as to use the original maker's name. Small part or big one , if it breaks and you have no idea where it really came from , you may pay the real price for not dealing with those that made the effort to build specific parts just for us. Will stick with FRPP and not interested in the copycat stuff that may or may not save any money.
 
This is a silly part/kit on which to base this debate. We are talking about a bracket. A piece of barstock with eight(?) holes drilled into it. Setrab already has a bracket for their cooler. It sounds like many here would think that Ford is in the wrong for making and selling a bracket, where one already exists! How DARE you, Ford! ::)

Anyway, Ford was smart enough to realize that some people might not want to spend over $1000 for three gauges, so they wisely sell the gauge pod empty in order for us to make our own gauge kit. If they sold the oil cooler bracket by itself, I would be happy to buy one from them. But no other part of my DIY oil cooler will share part numbers with the FRPP kit, so that's all that I am interested in.
 

steveespo

Lord knows I'm a Voodoo Child
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Just to be clear no where in any post (including post 29 in this thread) on this site do I purpose selling anything I manufacture, design or reverse engineer. Maybe copy the FRRP bracket was a poor choice of words but if I can help a fellow member save money and build a quality assembly for half the price I will do it all day long.
Our own lead moderator proposed in this thread one of the members fabricate a bracket for this purpose. I don't care about Ford Motor Company profits, I spend as much or more on their vehicles and parts as anyone, and I did already purchase their 302S oil cooler kit. I also spent additional money to improve it because the hoses chafed and the sandwich plate didn't have temp ports in them. If I had the benefit of the experience of many of the members in 2011 that we do today, you can bet I would have pieced together a better setup for half the price.

I ask that in the future if you feel something I post is wrong or immoral or incorrect PM me and I will respect your opinion and discuss it and potentially retract it. Calling someone a thief in public is also not cool.

Steve
 

JScheier

Too Hot for the Boss!
steveespo said:
If we can copy the FRPP bracket then there is a wide range of Setrab cooler that can fit it from 19000-96000 btu capacity. Setrab documents show very little pressure drop across the plates and excellent thermal transfer. They are operational to 30 bar (441 psi).

[snip]

Figuring $30 for the bracket, we could do an improved Ford Racing style kit for $850 with the biggest and $450 with the same size cooler as Fords'.

Sorry... must have misinterpreted the bold portions (bolded by me... quoted from post #29). Maybe it was just a poor choice of words on your part.

Nowhere did I call you a thief or label you as one. Just asking that you at least not post that it is OK to copy other's work... at least not from a company group that supports us who race using their parts.
 

steveespo

Lord knows I'm a Voodoo Child
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No problem John. The misunderstanding is understandable. Like I said poor choice of words saying copy, I should have said make a bracket like the FRPP one. Secondly if you read the parts list and added up the retail costs from the mentioned vendors; Setrab, Aeroquip, the guy on eBay who is machining the sandwich plates with NPT ports, then it would be clear that it adds up to $450 for the small Setrab and $850 for the large. The $30 was what I estimated 06Mach1, pufferfish or mardis, members who I have purchased items from in the past, could make a bracket for. The we was the collective and I have no plan to be involved with selling anything. Just sharing experience with people looking for ideas.
Steve
 
Jimmy Pribble said:
If they sold the oil cooler bracket by itself, I would be happy to buy one from them. But no other part of my DIY oil cooler will share part numbers with the FRPP kit, so that's all that I am interested in.

Jimmy I'm looking forward to your final parts list and detailed "how to" description. I would happily buy the Ford Racing kit, but I want oil temp/pressure ports and a larger cooler as well. Good luck with the build.

V/r Chris
 
To be clear Ford Racing did not invent the oil cooler or oil cooler bracket. I think what Steve proposed is fine and it's DIY guys like him that probably started Ford Racing in the first place. No BMO member is out to rip off Ford Racing and I doubt any of us will put them out of business or damage their profits. I'm also a big fan of Ford Racing products and my car is the poster child for them.

We should get back on topic.

P1030532.jpg
 
This got muddy, real muddy. So, would the parts list be referenced here? I would love to put a kit together, for those who aren't pushing 10/10ths is a pressure/temp gauge still a good idea or would you only need one when really pushing it.
 
Where the best place the oil temp sensor?

If I use a sandwich plate like FRPP, before the cooler or after it? Or maybe directly in the pan?

Setrab got these nice fittings with 1/8 port http://www.setrabusa.com/products/connections/adapterfittings/index.html (scroll to the end)

Thanks
 
Brandon302 said:
This got muddy, real muddy. So, would the parts list be referenced here? I would love to put a kit together, for those who aren't pushing 10/10ths is a pressure/temp gauge still a good idea or would you only need one when really pushing it.

From my experience I would say an oil temp gauge is a must. I track my car mainly in North Texas on tracks with a lot of hanging RPMs and the oil temps always exceeds 280 whenever the outside temps are above 90. So in the short term to lower oil temps I keep rpms below 6500 which in turn keeps oil temps below 265. Not the fastest way around the track, but much safer for the engine. IMO the FR / Setrab oil cooler should have been standard equipment.
 

JScheier

Too Hot for the Boss!
Brandon302 said:
I would love to put a kit together, for those who aren't pushing 10/10ths is a pressure/temp gauge still a good idea or would you only need one when really pushing it.

If it were me, and I wasn't planning on tracking the car, I'd probably be more concerned with oil temps in your scenario.

Since I do track the car, Oil temps are important, but lower oil pressure is more of a concern. If you were to go with a larger cooler (think someone mentioned 'Texas Sized') you'd definitely want to watch pressures to see if the larger cooler was resulting in a pressure drop. I think Kendall posted some interesting facts / numbers in his thread about pressure drop / loss across line and cooler sizes.

My current setup has oil temps coming out of the block at the oil pressure sensor location. In my previous car I ran the temp sensor after the cooler and then again at the filter. Filter (outbound with a sandwich plate) shows what exiting temperatures are. Exiting the cooler shows what you gained from the cooler and should be representative of what you are pumping back in. Based on my setup at the time, the filter location temps were more of a concern as that more readily represents the temperature of the oil at the bearings and other internals.

FWIW, I ran a fluidyne cooler on a 302 punched out to 347cu. Motor made 420 rwhp on pump gas and spun to 7800 rpm. Oil temps and pressures were very much on my mind each time I got on track.
 

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